Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
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    Default First Timer/Home Defense Shotgun

    Hey yall, I am pretty new here and was wondering if the community had any opinions on home defense shotguns...this will be my first shotgun too, so like in terms of handling, care, cost etc any input on that would be helpful too!

    I had a few things on my mind...
    1. The age old question...Remington 870 or the Mossberg 500...also I was looking at the CZ 712 Utility (its autoloading)
    2. To have a segway from the 1st question...is an autoloader more reliable than a pump in terms of cost effectiveness, ammo loads, customization, etc
    3. What is better? A buckshot load (like 000 or 00 Buck) or a slug? And whats the average muzzle velocity of a slug...the only thing seperating my house from my neighbors is a drywall with a cinderblock wall between them (as the houses are brick-attached)
    4. Any accessories in particular I should buy? Chokes, flashlights, laser pointers, ghost rings, reflex sights, ammo extensions, folding stocks
    5. I do want to get a folding stock only so I can fit it in my bedroom cabinet at night...should I get a over-the-top folding stock, telescoping stock or a side-collapsing stock?

    Thanks for any help you guys can offer me, Have a Good One !

  2. #2
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    Default Re: First Timer/Home Defense Shotgun

    umm you live in the bronx? I don't think any of the options/accessories you described are even legal in nyc.

    1.Mossberg 500's and Remington 870's are both great shotguns. Handle each one to decide which feels better in your hands. Collapsible and folding stocks are almost certainly illegal in nyc.

    2.the pump shotgun is more reliable than a semi-auto shotgun, you just have to make sure you clean it and cycle the action fully during each pump so ammo doesn't get hung up. Alot of the models will not be available for sale, because NYC is very restrictive.

    3.Slugs are great, but not for home defense in a city. It will go through 3 or 4 houses before stopping. Buckshot is better and 00 is just fine. Test the low recoil stuff to get a feel for what you can handle. Unfortunately most of the good ammunition is probably illegal to possess, or illegal to use for self defense in NYC.

    4. Most of the accessories are probably illegal in NYC.

    5. Folding and collaposible stocks are probably illegal in NYC.

    Try and get the official list of what is illegal in NYC and we can work from there.
    Last edited by jcabin; July 18th, 2010 at 06:46 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by headcase View Post
    let them eventually bring the FBI to kill my wife and son over fucking chickens....

  3. #3
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    Default Re: First Timer/Home Defense Shotgun

    Quote Originally Posted by jcabin View Post
    umm you live in the bronx? I don't think any of the options/accessories you described are even legal in nyc.

    1.Mossberg 500's and Remington 870's are both great shotguns. Handle each one to decide which feels better in your hands. Collapsible and folding stocks are almost certainly illegal in nyc.

    2.the pump shotgun is more reliable than a semi-auto shotgun, you just have to make sure you clean it and cycle the action fully during each pump so ammo doesn't get hung up. Alot of the models will not be available for sale, because NYC is very restrictive.

    3.Slugs are great, but not for home defense in a city. It will go through 3 or 4 houses before stopping. Buckshot is better and 00 is just fine. Test the low recoil stuff to get a feel for what you can handle. Unfortunately most of the good ammunition is probably illegal to possess, or illegal to use for self defense in NYC.

    4. Most of the accessories are probably illegal in NYC.

    5. Folding and collaposible stocks are probably illegal in NYC.

    Try and get the official list of what is illegal in NYC and we can work from there.
    i dont think even squirt guns are legal in New York
    J's post seems pretty accurate, slugs over penetrate to much for your area go for 00 buck and testing the shotguns you are considering are your best bet. I know telescoping stocks are illegal on rifles in NYC but not sure with shotguns, dont go all taticool crazy, keep it simple. Also looks like your gonna need to get a permit as well
    http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/pe...ormation.shtml

  4. #4
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    Default Re: First Timer/Home Defense Shotgun

    Thanks for the quick responces guys!

    I believe if I have 2 attributes of an "assault weapon" such as like a bayonet lug, threaded barrel for a flash hider/supressor or a telescoping stock then they call it an "assault weapon" but as far as just ONE attirbute (and it being a stock) I should be fine...just to stay on the safe side Ill go with a side-folding or over-the-top folding stock (Which is better?)

    And I figured that the slug would go through walls, thanks for confirming that

    As far as permits I know I need to file one, but i'll be buying the shotgun out of state to avoid the hassle from NYC gun dealers (most likely NH or PA) then I'll have to figure out if they want me to transfer it to an FFL

    So yah I'll probably end up going with a pump (unless yall know of any reliable and relatively cheap Side-by-sides or Over-Unders)

    As far as pumps go is there anything that a Remington can do that a Mossberg cant or are they basically the same thing?

    Should I put a choke on the barrel or does it really not matter at such a close distance (my bed to the door is probably like seven feet...if that)

    Thanks for the continued help guys!

  5. #5
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    Default Re: First Timer/Home Defense Shotgun

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreatShank View Post
    Thanks for the quick responces guys!

    I believe if I have 2 attributes of an "assault weapon" such as like a bayonet lug, threaded barrel for a flash hider/supressor or a telescoping stock then they call it an "assault weapon" but as far as just ONE attirbute (and it being a stock) I should be fine...just to stay on the safe side Ill go with a side-folding or over-the-top folding stock (Which is better?)

    And I figured that the slug would go through walls, thanks for confirming that

    As far as permits I know I need to file one, but i'll be buying the shotgun out of state to avoid the hassle from NYC gun dealers (most likely NH or PA) then I'll have to figure out if they want me to transfer it to an FFL

    So yah I'll probably end up going with a pump (unless yall know of any reliable and relatively cheap Side-by-sides or Over-Unders)

    As far as pumps go is there anything that a Remington can do that a Mossberg cant or are they basically the same thing?

    Should I put a choke on the barrel or does it really not matter at such a close distance (my bed to the door is probably like seven feet...if that)

    Thanks for the continued help guys!
    I know nothing about the gun laws in NYC, so don't know anything definitive regarding the law. My guess would be that they will make it at least as difficult to bring in a gun from out of state compared to buying one in state, but again do not know. I'd also imagine that they would put a side folding or top folding stock in the same category as a telescoping stock. The main thing is to exercise caution and be sure you are in compliance with all of the laws--you don't want to end up in jail for merely wanting to defend yourself!

    I think a pump shotgun will make an excellent home defense gun for you. They aren't too expensive, pack a lot of firepower, and the only real problem you can run into with one is short stroking the pump and getting a shell jammed up as was mentioned earlier. Training can overcome this problem to a large extent. I would suggest staying away from side by sides and over/unders for home defense--reloading a shotgun is a tricky thing to do during the day without pressure, let alone in a dark house with someone coming at you. The higher capacity of a pump shotgun can make a large difference, though it is a bit more complicated to operate.

    Remington 870's have a barrel you can replace by itself, whereas a Mossberg 500's barrel is attached to the magazine tube. I don't think this is a deal breaker for a home defense gun, as I don't think there is much reason to change it. It might be important if you want to install a higher capacity tube, but again do not know if you can do that in NY legally.

    If you have a shotgun that takes a choke, you probably want to use the most open choke it comes with for home defense. The spread at short distances is extremely tiny with a regular full length shotgun, and adding a bit to that can't hurt. I did a test with my 500 Persuader for spread, and at 15 feet the spread was about 3 inches across. This will vary with barrel length, whether or not it's rifled, the cartridges you're using, etc, so is far from empirical.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: First Timer/Home Defense Shotgun

    Really the thing you want is a 12 gauge the most popular and most reliable are the 870 and Mossy 500s, I also like a Ithaca or clone bottom ejector a little lighter and maybe faster pump. By the way I have a Mossy clone and it can be extended to hold 7-8 rounds and function reliably just like a 870.

    I also like a good semi auto shotgun like Beneili, Beretta or Rem 1100 any of the reliable makes or models used by Swat or LEO. Pumps are generally cheaper and just as reliable if not more so.

    What limits you most is the NY restrictions to mods and self defense guns. Check out the laws/rules in the county you live in. You don't want to be illegal despite your innate right to protection yourself.

    Folding stocks are cool but not necessary check out the law in your area 1st. No need having a gun if it going to make you break the law.

    Close as you guys live Buck shots no slugs please.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: First Timer/Home Defense Shotgun

    Thanks for the info Electronics, I guess I'll probably go w/ the Remington 870, should I just buy a regular Synthetic Express or go w/ one of their tactical 870 variants?

    Is there any acessory in particular that I should have for a home defense gun, are lights/lasers any good or are they just unneeded extras?

    Thanks again guys for all your help

  8. #8
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    Default Re: First Timer/Home Defense Shotgun

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreatShank View Post
    Thanks for the info Electronics, I guess I'll probably go w/ the Remington 870, should I just buy a regular Synthetic Express or go w/ one of their tactical 870 variants?

    Is there any acessory in particular that I should have for a home defense gun, are lights/lasers any good or are they just unneeded extras?

    Thanks again guys for all your help
    I don't have any acc. on mine but that's just the way I like it. If anything at all get a light, although some find it a disadvantage to giving away your position, you want to be sure of your intended target

  9. #9
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    Default Re: First Timer/Home Defense Shotgun

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreatShank View Post
    Thanks for the quick responces guys!

    I believe if I have 2 attributes of an "assault weapon" such as like a bayonet lug, threaded barrel for a flash hider/supressor or a telescoping stock then they call it an "assault weapon" but as far as just ONE attirbute (and it being a stock) I should be fine...just to stay on the safe side Ill go with a side-folding or over-the-top folding stock (Which is better?)
    IMO side folding and over the top folding stocks would still be classified as telescoping. To be on the safe side, you should find out what the law actually not what you think is safe, less you get time to research it in prison if the cops ever have a reason to enter your home. Consider that a self defense shooting will still get you charged with using an illegal weapon, and the DA might paint you in an insidious light, having used an illegal weapon, meaning you might be convicted even if it was a justified shooting.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreatShank View Post
    And I figured that the slug would go through walls, thanks for confirming that
    Buckshot will go through walls too, so you need to be sure of your shot. Slugs will just go through a few more houses instead of one or two.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreatShank View Post
    As far as permits I know I need to file one, but i'll be buying the shotgun out of state to avoid the hassle from NYC gun dealers (most likely NH or PA) then I'll have to figure out if they want me to transfer it to an FFL
    Make sure you bring your firearms ID card with you when you buy your gun out of state. I've seen local dealers turn away people from new york and new jersey, because the hassle is simple too great. They usually just tell people from new york just to buy the damned thing in their own state. (this might just be with handguns, because then they need to mail it to a FFL in your home state, and it's just not worth the time. For shotguns and rifles you may be able to walk out same day, not sure)

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreatShank View Post
    So yah I'll probably end up going with a pump (unless yall know of any reliable and relatively cheap Side-by-sides or Over-Unders)
    Pumps are mmore versatile and much better suited for self/home-defense. sxs and O/U are still useful, just limited in application.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreatShank View Post
    As far as pumps go is there anything that a Remington can do that a Mossberg cant or are they basically the same thing?
    They are basically the same thing. It's about which feels better in your hands and what looks better to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreatShank View Post
    Should I put a choke on the barrel or does it really not matter at such a close distance (my bed to the door is probably like seven feet...if that)
    That's not going to make much of a difference at under 10 yards. Accuracy and target acquisition are much more important. You need to learn how to safely handle the shotgun, how to aim, and how to stay on target after the first shot. Get some training.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreatShank View Post
    Thanks for the continued help guys!
    Quote Originally Posted by headcase View Post
    let them eventually bring the FBI to kill my wife and son over fucking chickens....

  10. #10
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    Default Re: First Timer/Home Defense Shotgun

    Wow thanks for that JCabin!

    Yah I read up on the things that qualify it as an "assualt weapon" being that is a pump and cannot accept a magazine or a grenade launcher I can put whatever I want on it...but in case I do get nabbed for having it for whatever astronomically incaluable reason NYC calls it an "assault weapon" if has TWO or more "Evil" traits (bayonet lug, threaded barrel, 100 round mag, etc) so I am on the safe side for the stocks

    My family in NH assured me I can get in the store and out w/ a shotgun w/ my driver's lisence and an "instant background check" (I guess they call the FBI or ATF to make sure I am not an alcholic, insane, wife-beating, mass-murdering cultist or whatever) But thanks for the heads up anyway!

    As for the buckshot going through the walls...will a different buckshot load help? Like say #4 buck shot, or will they always punch through a potential intruder and through an adjacent wall?

    Considering I am barely 3 yards from my bed to the door does barrel length matter? Does a shorter (16" w/ a SOT) or longer (like 24" ?) barrel hold any benefit over a standard 18.5" barrel...being that I am barely 3 yards from my bed to the door?

    Thanks for your continued help guys...it is really helping out!

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