No ltcf, what are transport laws for weekend in hotel?

[XJeffro]

Hello all
We have a family reunion this week near Philly (not IN Philly), and my brother and I were going to go to an indoor range to do some male bonding and fire some rounds. We haven't seen each other for awhile, so I am looking forward to seeing him. The thing I am unsure about is that he has no ltcf (I do, so I am not worried about my situation).
Without a ltcf, I know that when transporting a handgun, it must be locked in a separate case from the ammo, and must be in the trunk. The law says that one can only transport said handgun between one's residence and the range or gun shop.

He will be traveling from Harrisburg to Philly and we are staying in a hotel. My question is: Would the hotel be considered a place of "residence", i.e. is it ok to transport from his home to the hotel? After arrival, we would leave the hotel and go straight to the range, then back to the hotel. The following day he would be traveling home. I just want to make sure that this is legal to transport his firearm in this manner.
Any advice or verification of this would be much appreciated. Thanks!
Jeff

[tl_3237]

The hotel is a temporary lodging and would not qualify as a 'home'. Since the intent of the trip is not specifically range related (ex: attending a match requiring an overnight stay) then, IMO, he would not qualify for exception to the vehicular carry prohibition of 18 Pa CSA 6106(a) between his residence and the hotel.

The potentially applicable exceptions for which he doesn't qualify are:

18 Pa CSA 6106(b)

(4) Any persons engaged in target shooting with a firearm, if such persons are at or are going to or from their places of assembly or target practice and if, while going to or from their places of assembly or target practice, the firearm is not loaded.
(8) Any person while carrying a firearm which is not loaded and is in a secure wrapper from the place of purchase to his home or place of business, or to a place of repair, sale or appraisal or back to his home or place of business, or in moving from one place of abode or business to another or from his home to a vacation or recreational home or dwelling or back, ...

You both could still go to the range and he could use your pistol since you have an LTCF but his bringing his own 'piece' should be discouraged.

[Recoil]

Touchy situation to say the least. Your bro` seriously needs his LTCF ASAP!! OK, I`ll take a rip at this and most likely have my response torn to shreds but it`s a start.

It is legal to LOAN a handgun to someone who has a LTCF in PA. So, hypothetically, your brother could drive from Harrisburg, non stop with his gun properly locked and stored, to the gun range parking lot where you meet him. He then loans the gun to you, you take possesion of it and go to the hotel. For the duration of the stay you are in possesion of the gun and responsible for it. When all is said and done with the reunion and such and it is time for him to return home, you return his gun to him at the gun range parking lot, he properly locks and stores it and returns non stop to his home in Harrisburg.

[XJeffro]

It is legal to LOAN a handgun to someone who has a LTCF in PA. So, hypothetically, your brother could drive from Harrisburg, non stop with his gun properly locked and stored, to the gun range parking lot where you meet him. He then loans the gun to you, you take possesion of it and go to the hotel. For the duration of the stay you are in possesion of the gun and responsible for it. When all is said and done with the reunion and such and it is time for him to return home, you return his gun to him at the gun range parking lot, he properly locks and stores it and returns non stop to his home in Harrisburg.

Interesting. I never thought of this.

It really makes it difficult to transport a handgun without a ltcf. I assume under this law, he would not even be able to stop at a rest stop to use the bathroom. Maybe this is more of a hassle than it is worth...

[tl_3237]

Interesting. I never thought of this.

It really makes it difficult to transport a handgun without a ltcf. I assume under this law, he would not even be able to stop at a rest stop to use the bathroom. Maybe this is more of a hassle than it is worth...

Resonable and necessary incidental stops en route for bathroom, food, fuel, repairs, etc are allowed.

As I already stated - go to the range and let him use your handgun.

ETA:

Touchy situation to say the least. Your bro` seriously needs his LTCF ASAP!! OK, I`ll take a rip at this and most likely have my response torn to shreds but it`s a start.

It is legal to LOAN a handgun to someone who has a LTCF in PA. So, hypothetically, your brother could drive from Harrisburg, non stop with his gun properly locked and stored, to the gun range parking lot where you meet him. He then loans the gun to you, you take possesion of it and go to the hotel. For the duration of the stay you are in possesion of the gun and responsible for it. When all is said and done with the reunion and such and it is time for him to return home, you return his gun to him at the gun range parking lot, he properly locks and stores it and returns non stop to his home in Harrisburg.

An interesting quirk in the law - there is no mechanism to execute the return except through an FFL/sheriff. Doubt if the point would ever be pressed but it is an interesting legal conundrum. Presumptively a 'loan' implies a 'return' but, in the case of something regulated like firearms, does that implied 'retunr' have to comport with the same rules as a possession transfer?

[CHEMICAL]

you don't have to transfer the gun for him to "loan" it to you. transfer is only required for a sale or permanent possession if not under an exception (father to son). If the gun is in your possession during travel I don't see the problem.

[tl_3237]

you don't have to transfer the gun for him to "loan" it to you. transfer is only required for a sale or permanent possession if not under an exception (father to son). If the gun is in your possession during travel I don't see the problem.

You can temporary transfer possession to an LTCFer through 18 Pa CSA 6115 but there is no complementary law, other than an FFL/sheriff transfer, that allows the LTCFer to transfer the possession back to the non-LTCFer (the owner and original lender).

[Recoil]

The law can be vague at times. I always assumed the gun was to be transported DIRECTLY to and from the place of abode and the place of target practice\repair. Is there anything in the law pertaining to incidental stops enroute? I don`t know, I`m not an attorney and just offering a possible way to work this out.

I think going by the "purity of the law" he would be enroute to a place of target practice, and the law doesn`t state he actually has to target practice there at that time, but it does state,

"18 Pa CSA 6106(b)
(4) Any persons engaged in target shooting with a firearm, if such persons are at or are going to or from their places of assembly or target practice and if, while going to or from their places of assembly or target practice, the firearm is not loaded." He and his brother would be assembling there. Come to think of it, they could have their place of assembly at the hotel.

[tlgpa]

It really makes it difficult to transport a handgun without a ltcf.

Yup! Which is why it's important to remember, and pass to others, that it is a LICENSE to carry Firearms. When people call it a CCW permit it's really misleading since it does far more than allow you to CCW.

IMO anyone who owns a firarm should have their LTCF even if they have no intention of carrying. You never know when you may need it as your brother is now finding out.

[CHEMICAL]

You can temporary transfer possession to an LTCFer through 18 Pa CSA 6115 but there is no complementary law, other than an FFL/sheriff transfer, that allows the LTCFer to transfer the possession back to the non-LTCFer (the owner and original lender).

my point is that it isn't a transfer. transfer constitutes permanent possession, not a loan. under a loan it still legally belongs to the loaner, however since the loanee holds a LTCF it is legal for the loaner to loan it to him.

Irregardless, he should just get his LTCF. Makes everything a lot easier.