Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #21
    Join Date
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    (Franklin County)
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    Default Re: Lyman 9x19, 9x21 -- Why the difference?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dannix View Post

    The very reason I'm posting is simply asking the 'whys' of Lymans data. Why don't they included a 1.169" 9x19 load? How is 9x21 'safe' for IPSC major and 9x19 not? Is that heresy here? Did you take a look at that 1911 link I posted above?

    I'll take these questions elsewhere. Thanks for the best wishes. Personally I'd probably just look into rebarreling for .356TSW or .400 Cor-Bon if I ever want a hot 9mm load in my 9mm Glock, or going 10mm or .460 Rowland otherwise, but inquiring minds want to know.

    Rest regards. out.


    The very reason:

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hubris

    ....an excellent "elsewhere" for the answer.

    Flash
    "The life unexamined is not worth living." ....... Socrates

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Lyman 9x19, 9x21 -- Why the difference?

    I didn't mean to create waves the "clique" here. I didn't mean for asking such questions to be so offensive. I've enjoyed PAFOA's other subforums, but apparently this is a 'us four, no more' subforum?

    Flash, really? Your last post here just seems like an immature cheapshot. Does RobW fall in the same category? The "elsewhere" I referred to was a forum RobW recommended. Do you disagree with RobW recommendation? Is it somehow arrogant to suggest another forum could have more of a knack concerning the topic at hand?

    Edit: Are there no moderators here? Or is this 'normal' posting for here?

    Quote Originally Posted by Flash View Post
    The very reason:

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hubris

    ....an excellent "elsewhere" for the answer.

    Flash

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
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    Chambersburg PA (Pure Appalachia), Pennsylvania
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    Default Re: Lyman 9x19, 9x21 -- Why the difference?

    Dannix, any kind of pi$$ing contest is distasteful to me, either as observer or participant, and I hope this does not develop into one.

    I’m sorry you took umbrage, but it does seem that you are single-minded on a point. Confining ourselves to the discussion, leaving personalities and heresies out, should make communication easier for all.




    I guess your respondents, myself included, have not exactly sorted out what your point is. Perhaps you could add to the discussion by clarifying what, exactly, it is that you are asking. Or does your first post contain the entire inquiry?

    Your original questions, in essence, in Post #1 were: “…But why isn't this load mentioned in the 9x19 section? The only difference between these guys is brass OAL, nothing else...right?”

    The answer should be twofold. First, “Take the ‘mentioning’ up with Lyman who published the, manual”, and second, “Not exactly. There is more to it than merely the length of the case.” Further posts by respondents, myself again included, were an attempt to expand on the "Not exactly".


    The guy (MAXM) on the 1911 site you suggested said, on 06-21-10, in reference to loading the 9x21, “You can use the same charge weights as 9x19, but be careful with max loads, especially with heavy bullets! I made a lot of tests with a pressure barrel and i can tell you that pressure spikes very quickly and without the usual signes (primers, etc.).
    DON'T USE the 9x21 MAX loads from Lyman #49 manual!”,


    Which is not quite, exactly, the same as: “Their local guru also specifically mentioned the Lyman #49 manual's 9x21 data as no good.”


    Quote Originally Posted by Dannix View Post
    The "elsewhere" I referred to was a forum RobW recommended. ….. Is it somehow arrogant to suggest another forum could have more of a knack concerning the topic at hand?
    That's the Brian Enos forum which you joined 8 May 2010, and as a member on 14 Jul 2010 posted the exact same first post in thread : http://www.brianenos.com/forums/inde...&#entry1249552 . . .right?




    From Page 340, of the Lyman 49th , the last paragraph of the descriptive text for the "9mm Luger" (9x19):
    “Alliant’s Bullseye, Winchester 231, and Alliant’s Unique are very good popular propellants for this cartridge. With any handgun cartridge, it is important not to seat bullets to a shorter length than specified in the data. This is especially important with 9mm loads. Pressures can be raised dramatically with deep seating.”

    MAXX'S quote above seems to follow this statement well.


    Lyman is a recognized source which HAS done all the research and has gone on record with a published volume. They have a solid and long history of sound experience in this line of endeavor (going back to 1878, according to the flyleaf of that volume). Though “MAXM” may be very well thought of on that particular forum, it does not necessarily follow that his (essentially) anonymous postings on the forum have the same testing and experience behind them.

    You have been around this internet for at least a year (according to your join date on PAFOA). I’m sure you are familiar with the oft-mentioned: “It must be true – I got it right off the internet.” (FWIW)


    Quote Originally Posted by Dannix View Post
    Brass length does not mean Cartridge length. It just doesn't. That seems to keep coming up. If you're headspacing on the extractor or leade and hold constant the OAL, you could use even .380 Auto brass in 9x19 or 9x21 for lower pressure loads. This isn't that complicated.
    You are correct in that "Brass length does not mean Cartridge length", but as you know, there is more to it than that. Considering the .380ACP: Most often, a .380 round will drop into the chamber too far, headspacing as it does on the case mouth, for the firing pin to strike it or the extractor to grab it. However, if the extractor does grab and it does fire, the case may well rupture - they occasionally do when fired in 9x19 chambers, even low pressure loads. Not altogether the most desirable thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dannix View Post
    . Why don't they included a 1.169" 9x19 load?
    As for why Lyman does not publish any 9x19 loads at 1.169”COAL, it may well be that they tested various loadings at that length, (and this is mere supposition on my part) but found that shorter loads were much more efficient – who knows? That they chose to publish without such may mean any number of different reasons.

    Their data, their book - their call.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dannix View Post
    How is 9x21 'safe' for IPSC major and 9x19 not? . . . . . . Did you take a look at that 1911 link I posted above?

    As for “safe”, in order to make major in 9x19, you’d have to have a 115 gr projectile traveling at 1434fps – that ain’t a-gonna happen in normal 9x19 guns and stay within SAAMI pressures. 124 gr @ 1330 fps, and 147 gr @ 1124 fps likewise.
    The best 9x19 velocities within SAAMI pressure, though listed as Maximum loads are 1253, 1264, and 1052, respectively.

    9x21 approaches closer with 1333 for the 115 grain. 1335 = 124gr, & 1228 = 147gr, the latter two of which make “major” and stay within industry-recognized pressure limits.

    (The link and "MAXX" addressed above).




    Flash
    "The life unexamined is not worth living." ....... Socrates

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