Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
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    Default Awesome LEO encounter Fri night, got new PAFOA member(s)?

    I had quite an interesting experience this weekend, worthy of mentioning I think. To start out with, I drive a car that I'm borrowing from a friend of mine... and it's a piece of shit. To make it short, the inspection was out in April, the left low beam doesn't work (wiring, not the bulb), and as I found out Friday night, the registration had expired on June 30th. That's not even half of what's wrong with it, but I digress...

    I was driving back from a friend's house around 11:30pm Friday night and I was pulled over for not lowering my high beams (busted low beam, but high works on both sides) and because of the expired registration sticker. The officer noticed the expired inspection, the absence of the left low beam, and for the life of me, I couldn't find my friend's current insurance card, although the insurance policy is up to date. It was a mess, but obviously completely my fault for driving that turd on the road.

    He politely asked me to step out of the car because he was going to have my car towed since I couldn't prove that the insurance policy was current. He cited the exact section of the law that basically says that he has no choice in the matter, he could be sued if he let me go without proof of insurance. 'Whatever', I thought. Might as well just suck it up and deal with it, stupid decisions don't go unpunished. He handed me a stack of tickets and I stuffed them in my pocket.

    This is where it became gun related. I was CCing my M&P40C. Up until this point, I had said nothing about carrying a gun, as most of you would recommend. I've been pulled over while carrying before and never said anything since it's simply irrelevant to the matters at hand when pulled over. I had obviously not made the officer uncomfortable since he hadn't asked me about it. He let me know (almost apologetically) that he would have to pat me down since I was going to be getting a ride home from him in the back of the police Explorer. He asked if I had any drugs or weapons on me, and I responded "Nothing illegal, just my M&P40 on my right hip and an extra mag in my front left pocket." He responded much better than I thought, and again politely asked me if he could remove it. I leaned to the left and lifted my shirt and he carefully lifted the gun from its holster, cleared the chamber, and locked the slide back. From all the horror stories I've read on here, I was impressed with the level of delicacy in which he handled my gun. He naturally asked me for my LTCF (yes, he said license, not permit lol), then called in my name for a check to see if it was valid. He also ran the serial number through the registry.

    While we were sitting in the car waiting for the tow truck driver to load up the car, I heard the question I was waiting for. He asked "Why do you carry a gun?" It was an innocent question, so I responded how I always wanted to when asked by an officer... "because you're WAY too big and heavy to carry in my pocket." He laughed and we started talking guns and carry theory. When the conversation dulled, I said

    Me: "I have a question for you... what happens when you run a gun's serial number and it comes back as having a different owner?"

    Officer W.: "Well then it's stolen."

    Me: "I'm not trying to be confrontational or anything, but you do realize that PA has no gun registry, right?"

    Officer W.: (looking back at me like I was insane) "Yes, sir, I guarantee they do. Every hand gun gets registered."

    Me: "....insert perfectly quoted answer about PA sales database, comparison to NY/NJ, etc., and how the SCoPA ruled the database legal even though it clearly goes against the written law..."

    We went back and forth for a few minutes of casual conversation, and he eventually tried to look up the law on his computer in the car but could find nothing. We then ventured into the "must inform the officer" realm, and he tried to look up the same. He was hesitant to believe that there was never a law about registration and everything else I was talking about. It didn't seem to be an ego thing, more that he was kind of amazed/pissed that he was always taught the opposite.

    He gave me a ride to my house and the whole way we talked guns, theory, tactics, training, and general BS. When we got to my house, he let me out and handed me the two mags, the extra bullet, and my gun with the slide locked back. I was unsure how to handle the gun around him, since this was my first encounter with and officer where my gun was involved. I just held everything while we talked. While standing there I dropped one of the mags onto the grass. He pointed the flashlight and joked, "Hey at least you dropped it, not me... you better put it back in your holster before you drop the expensive gun!" I asked if it was cool with him if he chambered the round or if I should just holster the empty gun for now while we were talking. He said "Hell no, chamber it! That's how we carry!" I explained that I always do too, I just didn't know about doing it in front of him. He let me know that he was more than comfortable with my behavior and that he wasn't worried at all. I turned to a safe direction, dropped the slide, put the extra round in the mag, and holstered up. (keep in mind that this was at 1:30am on a back road near no houses or traffic, no worry about neighbors seeing and freaking out).

    I ended up showing him some gun related videos on his iPhone, talking about everything possible, and generally BSing for about an hour and a half. I told him about PAFOA and he said he would join up, and tell all the officers he knows to do the same. All in all, it was an awesome encounter. I fixed the issues with the car, and I'll be happy to pay the fines and towing bill. It sucks to spend money so pointlessly, but I'm glad I ran into this guy.
    Last edited by DC2.2GSR; July 13th, 2010 at 01:59 PM.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Awesome LEO encounter Fri night, got new PAFOA member(s)?

    Excellent post. It's great when you can have an educational and pleasant firearms related conversation with other people, especially LEOs.
    Quote Originally Posted by headcase View Post
    let them eventually bring the FBI to kill my wife and son over fucking chickens....

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Awesome LEO encounter Fri night, got new PAFOA member(s)?

    Wow that is awesome, the demeanor not the tickets and towing. I will be driving up to visit relatives in Wilkes-barre tomorrow I can only hope that any interaction with the police goes as well as yours did. I don't plan with interacting with them but you never know. I will be carrying my XD 45. Glad to hear it mostly worked out for you. I wish more cops were like that.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Awesome LEO encounter Fri night, got new PAFOA member(s)?

    I think I love you. Officer did well too!
    Great job!

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Awesome LEO encounter Fri night, got new PAFOA member(s)?

    Quote Originally Posted by DC2.2GSR View Post
    I had quite an interesting experience this weekend, worthy of mentioning I think.
    Thanks for sharing. That was mostly a good encounter. Hope he signs up here so he can get some more "training".

    To start out with, I drive a car that I'm borrowing from a friend of mine... and it's a piece of shit.....
    I fixed the issues with the car, and I'll be happy to pay the fines and towing bill. It sucks to spend money so pointlessly, but I'm glad I ran into this guy
    I think your buddy should be on the hook for some of those expenses if any of those tickets were for things you were unaware of.

    He naturally asked me for my LTCF (yes, he said license, not permit lol), then called in my name for a check to see if it was valid. He also ran the serial number through the registry.
    You should have questioned him on this. If not at the time of his request, at least later when you were BS'ing with him. He had no reason to request your LTCF.

    Me: "I have a question for you... what happens when you run a gun's serial number and it comes back as having a different owner?"
    Officer W.: "Well then it's stolen."
    Me: "I'm not trying to be confrontational or anything, but you do realize that PA has no gun registry, right?"
    Officer W.: (looking back at me like I was insane) "Yes, sir, I guarantee they do. Every hand gun gets registered."
    A few more questions you could've asked...
    What if I bought this gun used yesterday, and the registry you're referring too hasn't been updated yet?

    What if this gun was given to me by my mother (who's remarried and has a different last name). That's a legal transfer and wouldn't be in any registry. But to you it would appear stolen?

    I was unsure how to handle the gun around him, since this was my first encounter with and officer where my gun was involved. I just held everything while we talked.
    You didn't need a gun. You had personal protection. He just wasn't in your pocket
    The right to bear arms isn't for hunting bear. Subliminal Messages

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Awesome LEO encounter Fri night, got new PAFOA member(s)?

    Great story, +Rep.


    Quote Originally Posted by tlgpa View Post

    I think your buddy should be on the hook for some of those expenses if any of those tickets were for things you were unaware of.

    Y

    It's tough to debate who's responsible for those tickets. If the car owner should be at all responsible, does that mean if his the OP knew the headlight was out, and the owner drove it and got pulled over without prior knowledge, that the OP should pay that ticket? What if the car owner didn't know of a certain problem? To pass the blame to a person who isn't operating the vehicle would be hard, I'd say.

    Not to change gears, but if anybody took my car out, it's in their hands. If I knew it was illigal to drive on the road, that's why I'm not driving it. If somebody stole it (I know you didn't steal it, OP) I'd expect them to pay for anything they do.

    On the good note, great job, OP. I think the situation could have been worse. I'm sure we all imagined the LEO to do a minor "Nobody can have a gun near me" tactic.
    Last edited by StraussiE WousiE; July 13th, 2010 at 03:04 PM.
    Some say that his discharge is luminous.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Awesome LEO encounter Fri night, got new PAFOA member(s)?

    Quote Originally Posted by StraussiE WousiE View Post
    Not to change gears, but if anybody took my car out, it's in their hands. If I knew it was illigal to drive on the road, that's why I'm not driving it. If somebody stole it (I know you didn't steal it, OP) I'd expect them to pay for anything they do.
    It's a good question, but there is an inherent difference in who is responsible for what when comparing a stolen POS vehicle, and a POS vehicle that was explicitly borrowed.

    If someone stole a vehicle that was out of inspection, no registration, insurance, etc, clearly nobody is getting charged with operating a vehicle that is out of inspection. The thief will be charged with whatever automotive theft related crimes he committed.
    Quote Originally Posted by headcase View Post
    let them eventually bring the FBI to kill my wife and son over fucking chickens....

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Awesome LEO encounter Fri night, got new PAFOA member(s)?

    Quote Originally Posted by jcabin View Post
    It's a good question, but there is an inherent difference in who is responsible for what when comparing a stolen POS vehicle, and a POS vehicle that was explicitly borrowed.

    If someone stole a vehicle that was out of inspection, no registration, insurance, etc, clearly nobody is getting charged with operating a vehicle that is out of inspection. The thief will be charged with whatever automotive theft related crimes he committed.

    Yeah, well they should just tag that on there anyway. By not charging him for those minor things tells me my $xxx.xx for the fine is bullshit. Make him (theif) pay too. I hate crims! I want to buy a non-road safe POS, and let the keys in it with the doors unlocked, equip it with lo-jack, and make it my dying duty to ensure he gets charged for faulty signals, a burnt out license plate light, and dice from the mirror. I need justice. Oh, and charge him with auto theft too, don't forget that.
    Some say that his discharge is luminous.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Awesome LEO encounter Fri night, got new PAFOA member(s)?

    Quote Originally Posted by tlgpa View Post
    I think your buddy should be on the hook for some of those expenses if any of those tickets were for things you were unaware of.
    Disagree. When the OP borrowed the car, he assumed the responsibility of ensuring that the vehicle was road-worthy, inspected, and with current registration. If he didn't want that responsibility, there's always public transportation and bicycles.

    Quote Originally Posted by tlgpa View Post
    He naturally asked me for my LTCF (yes, he said license, not permit lol), then called in my name for a check to see if it was valid. He also ran the serial number through the registry.
    You should have questioned him on this. If not at the time of his request, at least later when you were BS'ing with him. He had no reason to request your LTCF.
    Disagree again. The OP freely admitted that he was CCing and in a vehicle, both activities that require a valid LTCF or reciprocal state's license (or any license in the case of carrying in a vehicle.) The LEO's request to produce a LTCF was not unreasonable and would likely stand up in court.

    The OP was also free to decline the ride home in the LEO's vehicle and never disclose the fact that he was CCing.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Awesome LEO encounter Fri night, got new PAFOA member(s)?

    Quote Originally Posted by StraussiE WousiE View Post
    It's tough to debate who's responsible for those tickets.
    The headlight is a no brainer. Anyone driving the car would know the headlight was out. DC2.2GSR knew it, his responsibility.

    Expired registration sticker. Something DC2.2GSR should've checked before driving. But something the owner should have known about AND told DC2.2GSR.

    Expired inspection. Same as registration sticker. Owner should've known.

    Insurance card. DC2.2GSR should've checked on that too. And the owner should have known it wasn't in the car. Had it been there, the car wouldn't have been towed.

    IMO the owner should man up and split the costs for the registration, inspection, insurance fines, and towing.
    The right to bear arms isn't for hunting bear. Subliminal Messages

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