Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
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    Default Of possible interest SB 1401

    I need help analyzing this.

    In my interpretation I believe this to mean that if passed it will become a crime of official oppression for a PA policeman or other official to inquire into the citizenship/immigration staus of an individual.

    Please convince me that I'm wrong! Does this also mean that if an illegal alien getes a PA driver's license he can be enrolled to vote without question?

    PRINTER'S NO. 2057
    THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF PENNSYLVANIA
    SENATE BILL No. 1401 Session of 2010

    INTRODUCED BY LEACH, WASHINGTON, KITCHEN, FARNESE AND HUGHES, JUNE 11, 2010
    REFERRED TO JUDICIARY, JUNE 11, 2010

    AN ACT

    1 Amending Title 18 (Crimes and Offenses) of the Pennsylvania
    2 Consolidated Statutes, further providing for official
    3 oppression.
    4 The General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania
    5 hereby enacts as follows:
    6 Section 1. Section 5301 of Title 18 of the Pennsylvania
    7 Consolidated Statutes is amended to read:
    8 § 5301. Official oppression.
    9 (a) General rule.--A person acting or purporting to act in
    10 an official capacity or taking advantage of such actual or
    11 purported capacity commits a misdemeanor of the second degree
    12 if, knowing that his conduct is illegal, he:
    13 (1) subjects another to arrest, detention, search,
    14 seizure, mistreatment, dispossession, assessment, lien or
    15 other infringement of personal or property rights; or
    16 (2) denies or impedes another in the exercise or
    17 enjoyment of any right, privilege, power or immunity.
    18 (b) Prohibited conduct.--In addition to other conduct that


    1 is prohibited within the meaning of subsection (a), it shall
    2 specifically be deemed a violation of subsection (a) to take any
    3 action listed in subsection (a):
    4 (1) for the purpose of detecting, investigating or
    5 apprehending a person whose only violation of the law is that
    6 the person is of foreign citizenship and present in the
    7 United States in violation of Federal immigration laws; or
    8 (2) based on race, national origin, ethnicity or
    9 perceived ethnicity, except when seeking to apprehend a
    10 specific suspect whose race, national origin or ethnicity is
    11 part of the description of the suspect.
    12 (c) Information sharing.--This section shall not prevent a
    13 law enforcement officer from exchanging with the United States
    14 Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement, the United States
    15 Bureau of Citizenship and Immigration Services or the United
    16 States Bureau of Customs and Border Protection any relevant
    17 immigration information the officer obtained collateral to an
    18 arrest or investigation that was not conducted in violation of
    19 subsection (b) of any criminal offense if the information
    20 sharing is authorized by the laws of this Commonwealth
    .
    21 Section 2. This act shall take effect in 60 days.

    20100SB1401PN2057
    - 2 -


    "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities".

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Of possible interest SB 1401

    Quote Originally Posted by Brick View Post
    I need help analyzing this.

    In my interpretation I believe this to mean that if passed it will become a crime of official oppression for a PA policeman or other official to inquire into the citizenship/immigration staus of an individual.

    Please convince me that I'm wrong! Does this also mean that if an illegal alien getes a PA driver's license he can be enrolled to vote without question?
    What it says is that knowing what they are doing is illegal, they can not harrass people to simply fish for green cards, or anything else racially motivated, unless the subject specifically fits a given description of a suspected criminal. At least that's what I got out of it. And if that is what it says, it is about time somebody enacted a statute that actually strengthens a person's right to be free from unreasonable search and seizure. Arizona crossed the line. Looks like Pa. is making sure it is illegal to do it here. Kudos.

    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty
    than to those attending too small a degree of it."~Thomas Jefferson, 1791
    Hobson fundraiser Remember SFN Read before you Open Carry

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Of possible interest SB 1401

    How did AZ cross the line? If you commit an offense or a crime or there is REASONABLE suspicion of such, why not check immigration status.
    Why as an American citizen, born and RAISED IN THE USA, do I have to learn a different language to do business in this Country and why do I have to show 3 different forms of ID to get a drivers license, But we can not ask a non citizen their immigration status when they get a DL, welfare, medicaid.

    Sorry headcase I have to disagree with you, illegal immigration is a major finical drain on this country as well as a security problem.
    RIP -The US constitution.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Of possible interest SB 1401

    Quote Originally Posted by headcase View Post
    What it says is that knowing what they are doing is illegal, they can not harrass people to simply fish for green cards, or anything else racially motivated, unless the subject specifically fits a given description of a suspected criminal. At least that's what I got out of it. And if that is what it says, it is about time somebody enacted a statute that actually strengthens a person's right to be free from unreasonable search and seizure. Arizona crossed the line. Looks like Pa. is making sure it is illegal to do it here. Kudos.
    Have you read the Arizona Law? I know I posted links to it in a post on that very subject. Did you know the very first paragraph of the law requires all AZ officials to be in compliance with Federal Law? And I'm sure you know that Federal Law requires all legal resident aliens to carry their green cards with them at all times and to display them on demand.

    If during the investigation of a police matter, the Officers believe it neccessary to question the immigration status of an individual, I see no problem with it. And there are times outside of police matters that are appropriate also, for example when a person of obviously foreign origins registers to vote or applies for public assistance or civil service employment.

    Now I'll share a funny story with you, my wife is foreign born and was naturalized during the late 1970s. But, she still has her accent and speaks what she describes as broken english. But, when we got our drivers licenses here in PA she was asked if she wanted to register to vote, with no question or confirmation what-so-ever. When I asked the clerk about this the response was "Oh we believe that people who aren't allowed to vote will decline."

    Don't forget, 8 of the 19 9/11 hijackers were registered to vote!


    "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities".

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Of possible interest SB 1401

    Quote Originally Posted by NY Refugee View Post
    How did AZ cross the line? If you commit an offense or a crime or there is REASONABLE suspicion of such, why not check immigration status.
    Why as an American citizen, born and RAISED IN THE USA, do I have to learn a different language to do business in this Country and why do I have to show 3 different forms of ID to get a drivers license, But we can not ask a non citizen their immigration status when they get a DL, welfare, medicaid.

    Sorry headcase I have to disagree with you, illegal immigration is a major finical drain on this country as well as a security problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by Brick View Post
    Have you read the Arizona Law? I know I posted links to it in a post on that very subject. Did you know the very first paragraph of the law requires all AZ officials to be in compliance with Federal Law? And I'm sure you know that Federal Law requires all legal resident aliens to carry their green cards with them at all times and to display them on demand.

    If during the investigation of a police matter, the Officers believe it neccessary to question the immigration status of an individual, I see no problem with it. And there are times outside of police matters that are appropriate also, for example when a person of obviously foreign origins registers to vote or applies for public assistance or civil service employment.

    Now I'll share a funny story with you, my wife is foreign born and was naturalized during the late 1970s. But, she still has her accent and speaks what she describes as broken english. But, when we got our drivers licenses here in PA she was asked if she wanted to register to vote, with no question or confirmation what-so-ever. When I asked the clerk about this the response was "Oh we believe that people who aren't allowed to vote will decline."

    Don't forget, 8 of the 19 9/11 hijackers were registered to vote!
    Actually, I guess I did not read the real version of this law. I did read, what I thought was the version sent to be signed by the governor, but there are major discrepancies between what I originally read, and the official text on AZ's website. I still believe that this section has enormous potential for abuse:
    11-1051:
    B. FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY
    OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS
    STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS
    UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE,
    WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON. THE
    PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
    PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c).
    But I was all fired up about this because the version I originally read said:
    B. FOR ANY CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY
    21 OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS
    22 STATE WHERE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON
    IS AN ALIEN WHO IS
    23 UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE,
    24 WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON. THE
    25 PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
    26 PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c).
    I can't remember where I obtained the latter version, but again, it was what I was under the impression the law actually said. I actually don't disagree with you that during a legitimate police investigation, if information questioning the status of a person surfaces, it should indeed be investigated as a matter of law. Same goes for people registering for civil programs and such. My problem was with the apparent ability of any LEO to simply stop anyone they might think was illegal and demand their ID. As I said, I still think there is vast potential for abuse of the RAS standard in this circumstance, but on the face of it, the actual law violates no rights that I can see. So I stand corrected and I appreciate you bringing it to my attention, thanks.


    To NY ref. My personal feelings are that if you want to do business with someone who speaks another language, then you learn that language. Same goes for doing business with company that employs people who speak another language. Or don't do business with them. This country only exists because people illegally emigrated here. The indignance most people show when asking why they should have to accommodate foreigners astounds me. If it bothers you so much, why do you not learn Algonquin and Iroquois and only do business with actual Americans?

    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty
    than to those attending too small a degree of it."~Thomas Jefferson, 1791
    Hobson fundraiser Remember SFN Read before you Open Carry

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Of possible interest SB 1401

    Quote Originally Posted by headcase View Post
    Actually, I guess I did not read the real version of this law. I did read, what I thought was the version sent to be signed by the governor, but there are major discrepancies between what I originally read, and the official text on AZ's website. I still believe that this section has enormous potential for abuse:
    But I was all fired up about this because the version I originally read said:
    I can't remember where I obtained the latter version, but again, it was what I was under the impression the law actually said. I actually don't disagree with you that during a legitimate police investigation, if information questioning the status of a person surfaces, it should indeed be investigated as a matter of law. Same goes for people registering for civil programs and such. My problem was with the apparent ability of any LEO to simply stop anyone they might think was illegal and demand their ID. As I said, I still think there is vast potential for abuse of the RAS standard in this circumstance, but on the face of it, the actual law violates no rights that I can see. So I stand corrected and I appreciate you bringing it to my attention, thanks.


    To NY ref. My personal feelings are that if you want to do business with someone who speaks another language, then you learn that language. Same goes for doing business with company that employs people who speak another language. Or don't do business with them. This country only exists because people illegally emigrated here. The indignance most people show when asking why they should have to accommodate foreigners astounds me. If it bothers you so much, why do you not learn Algonquin and Iroquois and only do business with actual Americans?
    You were doing good, until the bolded.......

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Of possible interest SB 1401

    Headcase, your acknowledgement is accepted and respected. Regrettably few people know or have bothered to learn the details of the AZ law by reading it especially among those that should read it before declaring it wrong.

    You are right also about immigration in general. North and South America are both peopled by "immigrants" or the "children of immigrants" of one stripe or another. Some of mine arrived by way of Beringea, on my mother's side the first came in 1755 as a member of Le Regiment de La Reine, on my father's side the first bearing our name was a tavern-keeper from London. My maternal grandfather spoke French at home (and went to a French grammar school) until he was 14. But, he refused to teach my mother and all of his grandchildren French. He reasoned that the U.S. was our country and English was our language and if France or Canada was any damn good we'd still be there.

    And yes for commerce or employment language is very neccessary. Over the years I learned (and forgot) a little Korean, German, Italian and Arabic, perhaps not enough to carry on a real conversation, but enough to be polite to the people I was around. But, communications is and remains a two-way street.


    "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities".

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Of possible interest SB 1401

    "...for the purpose of detecting, investigating or
    5 apprehending a person whose only violation of the law is that
    6 the person is of foreign citizenship and present in the
    7 United States in violation of Federal immigration laws;"

    Looks like Pa. police will not be allowed to enforce federal immigration laws, unless it is subsequent to an arrest for something else. This is bull, are we going to stop enforcing all other federal laws?

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