gun permit 'loophole'

[NWPA shooter]

Hope this isn't a repeat but what's up with this:


http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10165/1065547-100.stm


Pa. bill pushes to end gun permit 'loophole'
Monday, June 14, 2010
By Tom Barnes, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

HARRISBURG -- A Democratic state legislator from southeastern Pennsylvania is trying to close the "Florida gun loophole."

Rep. Bryan Lentz of Delaware County, who is running for a Congressional seat in suburban Philadelphia, wants to make it harder for Pennsylvanians who have been denied a license to carry' firearms in this state to simply get one from another state, in particular, Florida.

Currently, state law generally requires a person to be licensed by the state of Pennsylvania in order to carry a concealed weapon.

But there is this exception allowing firearms for "any person who possesses a valid and lawfully issued license or permit to carry a firearm, which has been issued under the laws of another state, regardless of whether a reciprocity agreement exists between the Commonwealth (of Pennsylania) and the state."

Mr. Lentz is upset, saying this exception allows Pennsylvania residents to legally carry a firearm in Pennsylvania "even when they have been denied, or had revoked, a 'license to carry' by Pennsylvania authorities." He called this situation a "loophole.''

He cited a case where a man was arrested in a rental car at a Pennsylvania airport with a loaded AK-47 in the car.

"The man had a Pa. 'license to carry', which was subsequently revoked," Mr. Lentz said. "While his case was pending, he obtained a Florida 'license to carry' by mail. He was subsequently stopped by Philadelphia police in a car with another loaded firearm. There was no arrest, however -- even though his Pa. 'license to carry' had been revoked -- because he now had a Florida license to carry.''

He has a bill before the House Judiciary Committee to stop Pennsylvania residents from getting their license to carry from another state. The committee may vote on the Lentz bill on Tuesday, depending on how talks with the National Rifle Association go.

"This legislation is needed to ensure that local authorities retain control over the (firearms) permit process and that Pennsylvania residents who are granted a license to carry have met the standards of our state and not those of another state, whose standards may be less than ours," Mr. Lentz said.

In November, he will face Republican Pat Meehan for the Congressional seat now held by U.S. Rep. Joe Sestak.
Bureau Chief Tom Barnes: tbarnes@post-gazette.com or 717-787-4254.

Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10165...#ixzz0qsfaDV98

[GunLawyer001]

I think it's been posted before; the errors are that non-reciprocated permits only allow carry in a car, not concealed on the person; and the example they gave of a loaded rifle in the car is totally irrelevant, since loaded rifles are illegal in a vehicle with or without a permit/license.

The real problem is that denials are too common where the applicant is entitled to receive the license. Philadelphia denies applicants frivolously, then bitches when they bypass the anti-gun wrongful denials.

I notice that nobody is citing to anyone who is actually INELIGIBLE under PA law for a license, who is carrying on a Florida permit. That tells the whole story, to those who understand the issues.

[NS145]

From delcotimes.com

By JOHN KOPP
johnkopp11@gmail.com

Legislation aimed at eliminating a loophole in the state’s right-to-carry laws is expected to be considered by the House Judiciary Committee today.

House Bill 2536, introduced by Rep. Bryan Lentz, D-161, of Swarthmore, would make it illegal for Pennsylvania residents to carry a concealed weapon using an out-of-state permit if the commonwealth otherwise did not approve them to carry a concealed weapon.

Under the present right-to-carry laws, any resident can use a permit issued by another state, even if their Pennsylvania license had been denied or revoked.

“Under Pennsylvania law, the right to carry a concealed firearm is controlled by the county sheriff’s office,” Lentz said. “The situation we’ve seen is that in cases where they’ve denied or revoked permits, individuals have bypassed local law enforcement and gone to other states like Florida and had a permit issued. Local law enforcement then has to recognize that permit. So, it acts as a ‘Get Out of Jail Free’ card.”

Last week, Lentz sent the committee a letter of support signed by police chiefs from 10 municipalities, including Swarthmore police Chief Brian Craig and Upper Darby police Superintendent Michael Chitwood. Philadelphia police Commissioner Charles Ramsey and Pittsburgh Chief of Police Nathan Harper also signed the letter.

“I think it would make some places in Pennsylvania safer,” Craig said. “Swarthmore is a pretty safe town to start with, but there are surely areas that certainly have issues. Talking to people in Philly, they found people with gun permits from Florida with whom they had issue with.”

Lentz’s office provided the Daily Times a list of cases in which residents had never applied for a Pennsylvania permit, or had their permits denied or revoked, but had obtained a permit from another state.

That list included a 2004 case from Upper Darby in which a man lost two Philadelphia permits, but later received one from Florida.

“I think it’s unconscionable that somebody who gets denied a concealed weapons permit for whatever reasons in the state of Pennsylvania then can turn around and go to another state and get a permit to carry,” Chitwood said. “I think when you look at American society, where gun violence is probably the most prominent criminal activity in our community, I think as a law enforcement chief, we have to do everything we can to close as many loopholes.”

According to a press release issued by Lentz’s office, at least 3,100 permits have been granted to Pennsylvania residents by the Florida Department of Agriculture.

Lentz said Pennsylvania residents can receive permits from Florida without undergoing training there. Instead, they can go to a gun shop in Pennsylvania and get a certification to fulfill that requirement.

“They just send a certification,” Lentz said.

C. Scott Shields, a Media lawyer and Second Amendment advocate, called the proposed legislation “unnecessary.”

“It’s political theater,” Shields said. “He’s not going after the bad guys. He’s passing a meaningless piece of legislation to say he’s done something to placate the extreme part of the liberal left.”

Shields also questioned the likelihood of Pennsylvania residents obtaining permits from Florida, a state which requires training to receive one.

Pennsylvania does not.

“It’s more difficult to get a license in Florida than it is in Pennsylvania because Florida requires training and they don’t give out licenses to people who are otherwise not permitted,” said Shields, a Republican who also serves as the mayor of Rutledge. “If you’re a prohibited person in Pennsylvania, you’re not going to get a concealed weapon from anywhere else in the country.”

Lentz is running against former Delaware County district attorney and U.S. attorney Pat Meehan for the 7th Congressional District seat.

“As a former U.S. attorney, Pat has a record of leadership in fighting to keep guns out of the hands of criminals,” said Meehan spokesman Pete Peterson. “The best way to combat crime is to end our revolving door justice system and prosecute a criminal using or possessing an illegal gun to the fullest extent of the law, as well as those who illegally obtain guns for criminals.”

[GunLawyer001]

. . .
“Under Pennsylvania law, the right to carry a concealed firearm is controlled by the county sheriff’s office,” Lentz said. . . .

No, it's SUPPOSED to be controlled by Commonwealth statute. The problem is the little tin-pot dictators in Philly and Pittsburgh and a few other places, who resent Harrisburg telling them what to do in their little fiefdoms. If the local sheriffs and the Philly PD would simply obey PA law and only deny people for the listed criteria, those people would be ineligible for Florida licenses, too. There is no loophole for felons or crazy people or wife beaters to obtain Florida licenses; there's just a legal option for people wrongfully denied to exercise their rights.

“I think it’s unconscionable that somebody who gets denied a concealed weapons permit for whatever reasons in the state of Pennsylvania then can turn around and go to another state and get a permit to carry,” Chitwood said. . . .

That's the problem right there, this guy thinks he can deny an LTCF in a "shall issue" state, based on "whatever reasons" he feels like. He's smart enough not to say something provably dumbassed, like "denied for a felony conviction", because Florida would rightfully point out that they would deny the applicant for that legitimate reason, too.

When they get deliberately vague like that, it's a signal that they know that they're full of shit on this issue, like you 16-year old daughter saying she's going out at midnight to do "stuff". She knows where she's going, she just doesn't think that the truth would help her. Same with Chitwood, he knows the truth, but the truth won't convince you that we need to give local despots a tighter grip on the serfs living in their domain; when he squeezes too tight, they escape his grasp, and he doesn't like that.

It's like sheriffs and chiefs who refuse to sign Form 4's because they don't want their subjects to have machineguns; the citizens will just form LLC's and legally get them anyway, effectively giving the CLEO the middle finger.

Sheriffs do not have discretion to issue licenses, in this area of the law they are mere functionaries. They do the background investigation, they determine if any of the listed criteria apply, and then they have their orders to issue or not issue, based on the statute. They are required to be obedient little soldiers, not policy-makers who try to whittle away at our gun rights while they acquire heavier firepower for their own militarized dog-shooting troops.

[OldSchoolPC]

In regards to House Bill 2536, does anybody know if this bill became law? This was known as the Florida Loophole. Also, have there been any laws passed in the last 2 years restricting out of state LTCFs to PA residents?

[BimmerJon]

In regards to House Bill 2536, does anybody know if this bill became law? This was known as the Florida Loophole. Also, have there been any laws passed in the last 2 years restricting out of state LTCFs to PA residents?

I believe the Philly one passed.

Frankly..... VERY frankly, I don't give a shit

It's an illegal and unenforceable law and if I'm ever arrested for carrying on a Florida or reciprocal permit, I'll empty my bank account(s) to sue the hell outta them.

[son of the revolution]

In regards to House Bill 2536, does anybody know if this bill became law? This was known as the Florida Loophole. Also, have there been any laws passed in the last 2 years restricting out of state LTCFs to PA residents?

No State Law, but as Bimmer says above, Philly passed an " ordinance" last year that essentially says they refuse to recognize a Non Resident Florida Permit as valid within the City. It is for all intents and purposes a paper tiger and unenforceable. That DOESNT mean someone carrying in Philly on a Florida Non Res Permit wouldnt be arrested, tossed in the clink and charged by Seth Williams Office, it DOES mean that the case would eventually be thrown out as the ordinance is illegal and unenforceable and the victim could become number 3,045,784 on the list of people who have sued the City of Philadelphia and its "leaders " for illegal activites and deprivation of rights.

[American1776]

No State Law, but as Bimmer says above, Philly passed an " ordinance" last year that essentially says they refuse to recognize a Non Resident Florida Permit as valid within the City. It is for all intents and purposes a paper tiger and unenforceable. That DOESNT mean someone carrying in Philly on a Florida Non Res Permit wouldnt be arrested, tossed in the clink and charged by Seth Williams Office, it DOES mean that the case would eventually be thrown out as the ordinance is illegal and unenforceable and the victim could become number 3,045,784 on the list of people who have sued the City of Philadelphia and its "leaders " for illegal activites and deprivation of rights.

Not to hi-jack or de-rail: but THIS ^^^^^ is exactly why I'm a cautious cat when it comes to a National Reciprocity Law passing. Even if it does pass, I can assure you this is exactly the illegal stuff that NJ and NYC will do. They will pass illegal ordinances that will illegally make it illegal for people to carry in their borders, and will give orders to all LEO's to promptly arrest all those caught carrying legally. When someone objects by saying they'll sue, their reply will be 'pick a number'.
I really hope this doesn't happen, but it certainly might.