"Accidental" SBR?

[gnbrotz]

I'm building my first AR. This build will be a compact model, intended for home defense. However, I do intend it to be a legal "long gun". I'm building it over an extended time, and will be buying parts as I have extra cash here and there. As I was looking at buttstocks (I want a collapsible one), I wondered if it would be possible to inadvertently build a rifle that met the legal definition of an SBR simply by fully collapsing the buttstock, but would be legal with it extended - either partially or fully (based on the overall length requirements). I'm not at all familiar with this platform, so it's hard for me to estimate beforehand.

As I understand it, even possessing the parts for such an arm would be a crime, even if they were not put together, so I figured I'd ask before I found myself in a bad spot.

[kcr121]

As I was looking at buttstocks (I want a collapsible one), I wondered if it would be possible to inadvertently build a rifle that met the legal definition of an SBR simply by fully collapsing the buttstock, but would be legal with it extended - either partially or fully.

As long as you're using a barrel with an overall length of >16" (including flash hider/muzzle brake, permanently attached if actual barrel length is <16"), you have nothing to worry about.

An AR with a collapsible buttstock and a 16"+ barrel will not meet the definition of an SBR because, by ATF regulations, overall length is measured with collapsible buttstocks in the fully extended position. Give me a minute and I'll see if I can track down the letter from the ATF stating the measuring procedures.

[Guns4Fun]

As long as you're using a barrel with an overall length of >16" (including flash hider/muzzle brake, permanently attached if actual barrel length is <16"), you have nothing to worry about.

An AR with a collapsible buttstock and a 16"+ barrel will not meet the definition of an SBR because, by ATF regulations, overall length is measured with collapsible buttstocks in the fully extended position. Give me a minute and I'll see if I can track down the letter from the ATF stating the measuring procedures.

^^^^^^

This. As long as the total barrel length (with any pinned / welded muzzle devices) is 16" or more everything is fine.

Edit - if you are trying to stay as short as possible and still be 16", i'd go with a 14.5" barrel and a pinned / welded muzzle device. That way you are right at 16.1". If you go 16" barrel, you'll be about 3/4 longer because of the muzzle device.

Here is a bravo co. 14.5" upper to look at.

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-M...4-14%20a2x.htm

[kcr121]

Here you go... there are several letters with the same wording floating around the internet.



Quoted below in case the image is taken down from the hosting site (including grammatical errors):

With respect to obtaining the overall length, per NFA specifications, of a firearm with that has a collapsible or retractable shoulder stock, you must measure this type of firearm with the shoulder stock extended.

As I understand it, even possessing the parts for such an arm would be a crime, even if they were not put together, so I figured I'd ask before I found myself in a bad spot.

This is correct. For example, let's say I own an AR-15 that meets the legal definition of a long arm (barrel length >16", overall length >26"). I then purchase an upper receiver with a 10" barrel, intending to build an SBR, without first owning an NFA-registered SBR lower receiver. Because that 10"-barreled upper receiver can easily be placed onto the AR-15 lower receiver that I already own by pulling two detented pins, it's considered "constructive intent" of an unregistered SBR.

To avoid the hassle, if you wanted to build an SBR, you would first buy and register your lower receiver as an SBR. You could then own short-barreled (<16") upper receivers legally.

I am not a lawyer, but I do know how to cover my ass.

[kcr121]

As long as the total barrel length (with any pinned / welded muzzle devices) is 16" or more everything is fine.

Well, yes, but not quite. Overall length still needs to be >26", but any AR buttstock, collapsible or fixed, will bring the overall length to >26" when used with a 16"+ barrel. That's basically the point of my first reply.

[Guns4Fun]

Well, yes, but not quite. Overall length still needs to be >26", but any AR buttstock, collapsible or fixed, will bring the overall length to >26" when used with a 16"+ barrel. That's basically the point of my first reply.

Agreed - as long as you stay 16" you'll be fine no matter what common AR stock you use.


Edit - also, remember that when it comes to NFA stuff and the ATF, unless you are the actual person the letter was written to, the letter doesn't mean squat. So, you always want the letter addressed to you to prevent problems down the road. The ATF has been known to write conflicting letters to different people. Saying yes to one and no to another. But in this case, the letter just reaffirms what is already know by most.

[ungawa]

Agreed - as long as you stay 16" you'll be fine no matter what common AR stock you use.


Edit - also, remember that when it comes to NFA stuff and the ATF, unless you are the actual person the letter was written to, the letter doesn't mean squat. So, you always want the letter addressed to you to prevent problems down the road. The ATF has been known to write conflicting letters to different people. Saying yes to one and no to another. But in this case, the letter just reaffirms what is already know by most.

Probably true. An ATF letter will probably only protect the person addressed to, although I don't understand their rulings very well.

But remember the other side. An ATF ruling letter against any person will probably apply to everyone.

So, stop asking for ATF letters. Unless it's extremely important.

[gnbrotz]

by ATF regulations, overall length is measured with collapsible buttstocks in the fully extended position.

Understanding the limited protection afforded by a letter drafted to someone else, this information is helpful.

Edit - if you are trying to stay as short as possible and still be 16", i'd go with a 14.5" barrel and a pinned / welded muzzle device.

Will keep this in mind. It may be an option that I'll have to think about. A suppressor is in the long range plans as well, though I don't plan for it to be a permanent attachment. Perhaps by that point, I'll simply SBR it too....we'll see.

Thanks for the input guys!

[Guns4Fun]

Understanding the limited protection afforded by a letter drafted to someone else, this information is helpful.



Will keep this in mind. It may be an option that I'll have to think about. A suppressor is in the long range plans as well, though I don't plan for it to be a permanent attachment. Perhaps by that point, I'll simply SBR it too....we'll see.

Thanks for the input guys!

If you are going to eventually run a can, I’d go sbr.

The can will add a lot of length and weight (as much as 8" and 24 oz.) - so, you are going to be well over 20" long with the can on and the added weight hanging of the end of a 16" barrel feels awkward.

Most people, myself included run an 11.5" barrel when using a can. That set up seems to work well for reliability and overall balance.

Some can manufacturers have quick attachments that will allow you to attach directly to a muzzle device - so, there might not be a need to remove the fixed muzzle device from the 14.5" / pinned set up. If you choose to go that route.

There are way too many options to go into when it comes to cans. So, do a little homework on SWR, Gemtech, YHM, AAC, etc to see what "options" will work best for your needs.


Good luck, and happy hunting.

[ithinkimamedic]

Greg if you're going to try to go for short short short and anticipate putting a suppressor on it Guns4fun's got it right. 11.5 inch barrel + suppressor = fantastic balance and nice and short.

As far as a short stock, who needs a collapsible stock. Go with an RRA entry stock. Quite possibly the shortest out there and it's solid. This is a 11.5 w/ A2 flasher, AAS Omni suppressor and RRA butt-stock.