Do not crowd cover

[LittleRedToyota]

Paul Howe did some interesting tests regarding using a car for cover...that really reinforces the notion that you should not crowd cover.

thought people would find it interesting.

http://www.combatshootingandtactics....f_cover_07.pdf

[falcn]

Good to know!

[SteveinNEPA]

Great post. Something to think about if God Forbid you ever need your vehicle as cover in a self defense situation and great for the LEOs we have on this site.

[Hawk]

Good stuff! I guess this would also apply to other types of hard surfaced cover.
Like:
-A corner of a brick building
-A steel door/door way
-The top of a stone/brick/concrete wall
-A mailbox
-A dumpster

[Dredly]

interesting... but doesn't this depend almost entirely on where the bad guy is standing when he starts shooting and what he is shooting?

If you take position 3 steps behind your car and the person you are hiding from is 6'4 you are going to be very exposed to getting shot over the car, if you are in tighter to the car you stand a chance of the car stopping the rounds or at least shielding you from view...

[LittleRedToyota]

Good stuff! I guess this would also apply to other types of hard surfaced cover.

yes, it certainly does.

the hollywood method of using cover is a good way to get yourself shot.

bullets follow walls...and other hard surfaces.

[LittleRedToyota]

If you take position 3 steps behind your car and the person you are hiding from is 6'4 you are going to be very exposed to getting shot over the car, if you are in tighter to the car you stand a chance of the car stopping the rounds or at least shielding you from view...

i would not rely on a car to actually stop bullets. the engine will. the wheels/axle will. but those are relatively small. sheet metal, windows, seats, etc. probably will not stop the bullets...unless they hit at enough of an angle so bullet ricochets, but then you have the problem outlined in the paper.

yes, it would potentially provide broader concealment if you were closer, though. but that also limits your field of view.

further, i think if you actually work out the angles, you would have to back quite far away for someone (even a tall someone) to be able to effectively place aimed fire over the top of a vehicle at you.

the real issue is him coming around the vehicle.

if you step back away from the car, you can simultaneously monitor both flanks better, you can see the bad guy sooner, and you have a wider field of fire, but you can still quickly move sideways to put the car back between you and him.

a buddy and i actually spent a day doing FoF with airsoft trying out different methods of attacking each other (and, thus, the other guy defending against the attack) around vehicles a while back. we found it was better to back away from the vehicle and wait in ambush for the other guy to move around the vehicle, so to speak.

something that worked really well if the guy stayed in close to the car was shooting him in the feet/lower legs under the car. i was kinda surprised it worked so well, but it did.

you know the guy is there, you peak under the vehicle and see his feet right next to the vehicle. you know that to get a shot at you, he has to move around the vehicle (or drop to the ground himself), so you have a window of time. you drop to your stomach such that you are getting some cover from a wheel and use the ground as a rest for the pistol and shoot him in the feet...although a small target, it was actually surprisingly easy to get hits because you are in such a stable shooting position.

if he falls, you then shoot him in the body. if he doesn't fall, he is cheating...as he would fall if it were a real bullet instead of a plastic BB.

[Solscud007]

damn interesting stuff.

I want to play too!!! Next time your shooting each other silly with bbs haha.

[LittleRedToyota]

damn interesting stuff.

I want to play too!!! Next time your shooting each other silly with bbs haha.

there used to be three of us who would meet up once a week in johnstown (yep, i drove 2 hours each way for a few hours of FoF once a week...it's worth it) for airsoft FoF training. but they both have other commitments taking up their time, so it doesn't happen anymore.

i would definitely be up for getting together (closer to home, hopefully) for regular airsoft FoF training, though, if you are interested. i think i know someone else who might be interested. we will have to find a place where we can do it, though. (and we would both want to structure it as actual training and not just playing games...not that games aren't fun, but...)

i do have to get my airsoft glock (KSC glock 17 GBB) running again, though, first. i have been told, though, that you are pretty much of an expert on airsoft guns, so maybe you could help me out with that. i haven't really looked into it much, but the last time i tried to shoot it, it kept malfunctioning in the same way.

i would take a single shot and the slide would end up slightly out of battery with all the gas hissing out of the mag. i'm not sure if the slide is going all the way back and then just not returning all the way back into battery or if it is not even fully moving back and just getting stuck after moving only a quarter inch or so out of battery.

i could detail strip and reassemble a real glock blindfolded, but the airsoft gun is a bit of a black box to me...and i haven't yet taken the time to figure out how it really works to try to fix it. i might just need to clean it...

[Solscud007]

yep it is a dirt issue. Like any weapon. it needs to be cleaned and oiled.

I imagine we could do these FoF training at PMSC. a friend of mine Kurt aka Angus owns AMPED AIRSOFT and he told me that they are working on getting an indoor CQB envrionment set up in July. It is in Scott Twp. Last time I helped them with a CQB place it took them 2-3 months past their "grand opening" date to finish. I hope that will not be the case. I have been out of airsoft for over a year so I dont know exactly what is going on with them.