Need some help/advice...please

[Gunguy87]

Ok so I want to get my first suppressor, and the guys at the shop were telling me that there was no way I would get a Cleo to sign off on it, seeing as I live in philly. They recommended that I go the trust route with this one. Now here is the problem, I know nothing about the trust's. I know it's best to have a lawyer draft one up(to cover my ***) But I dont even know where to start. Do any of you guys know of any good lawyer's that know the in's and out's of a nfa/class III trust? I'm willing to hear anything that you guys have to say. Any help would be very much appreciated!
Tom

[mojo]

Personally, I would go with Gunlawyer and setup a LLC.

[GunLawyer001]

I prepare LLC's for NFA acquisitions. They work very well.

Trusts are good if you're worried more about settling down, putting your assets into the "I'm-almost-dead" pile so that your heirs will receive them with minimal taxation and fuss. Not so good for younger guys to put their toys into.

Some guy like trusts because they can make one up using cheap software, and they get the tax stamps so they "work". The problem is that you want to own NFA firearms in a way that minimizes your chances of being in unlawful possession, and if your trust is determined to be invalid, then ownership is in limbo, and your possession is unlawful. The test of a trust is not whether the ATF examiner sticks a stamp on your form and cashes the check (they always cash the check anyway), the test is whether your legal construct would survive a determined challenge from a local DA who wants to crucify you for unlawful possession of a prohibited offensive weapon under PA law.

You know how sometimes, botched police raids of "major drug dealers" turn up some elderly couple and an ounce of weed that one of the cops confiscated the week before from some kids? Cops make mistakes, they want you to be the bad guy, and if all they have on you is some NFA toys that your homemade trust document makes legal, be sure that they will try to nullify that trust. THAT is when it has to be perfect, not when the form is passing across ATF's desk with a check.

Get an LLC, or a corp. I like LLC's. Simple to run, no annual taxes unless it makes a profit.

[Kramer]

I prepare LLC's for NFA acquisitions. They work very well.

Get an LLC, or a corp. I like LLC's. Simple to run, no annual taxes unless it makes a profit.

It has been working well for me and my NFA.

[Gunguy87]

Ok, now what is an LLC? Where and how do I start an LLC? Yes I'm a complete noobie :P
Thanks for the replies.

[mojo]

Ok, now what is an LLC? Where and how do I start an LLC? Yes I'm a complete noobie :P
Thanks for the replies.

LLC = Limited Liability Company .. it's a business entity.

[Little Cloud]

I am a total noob at this as well ...

My understanding of a LLC is for business purposes; to basically limit the liability of the corporation to the corporation

How does this apply to a silencer? I can understand why one would want to limit liability with a silencer... but start a business? I'm mixed up on that one.

To muddy up things even more ...
A LLC can purchase a silencer w/out a LEO signoff? It's purchased as a business item, or something? I can understand selling silencers, yes .. a LLC would be the way to go, but to buy it under a LLC and use personally?

I'm not trying to knocking anyone here ... but it seems kinda shady to me.

What am I missing?

[NikeBauer21]

I am a total noob at this as well ...

My understanding of a LLC is for business purposes; to basically limit the liability of the corporation to the corporation

How does this apply to a silencer? I can understand why one would want to limit liability with a silencer... but start a business? I'm mixed up on that one.

To muddy up things even more ...
A LLC can purchase a silencer w/out a LEO signoff? It's purchased as a business item, or something? I can understand selling silencers, yes .. a LLC would be the way to go, but to buy it under a LLC and use personally?

I'm not trying to knocking anyone here ... but it seems kinda shady to me.

What am I missing?

The suppressor is bought as an asset of the company, in the companies name. So instead of you owning the suppressor, the company would technically own it. It's basically just a work-around if the CLEO doesn't want to sign off for it.

I'm not completely versed on the LLC/trust ownership aspects of NFA purchasing, so I can't really speak to it very well either.

[GunLawyer001]

An LLC is a "legal person", while you folks are "natural persons". Any "person" can own an NFA firearm, as long as the person is not a prohibited person.

So we create an LLC for you, I draft the necessary documentation to allow you personally to be in possession of the company asset. Not shady at all, in fact, the paper trail specifies everything very plainly and openly.

Only natural persons require the CLEO signature. Some CLEO's have personal prejudices against guns in general, and NFA firearms in particular. They refuse to certify that they have no information showing that you plan to misuse the firearms, which is a no-brainer.

The unintended consequence of their shortsightedness is that citizens living in their jurisdictions no longer inform the CLEO that they plan to acquire a machinegun, or silencer, or destructive device; instead, the CLEO leaves himself out in the dark, while citizens bypass his irrelevant ass quite legally by using corps or LLC's.

If I were sheriff or chief, I'd welcome the taxpayers coming in, discussing their proposed purchase, letting me check them out with the detectives, and then I'd gladly sign off. I'd know what sorts of exotic weapons were in town, they'd enjoy their civil rights. A win-win, really.

[Kramer]

An LLC is a "legal person", while you folks are "natural persons". Any "person" can own an NFA firearm, as long as the person is not a prohibited person.

So we create an LLC for you, I draft the necessary documentation to allow you personally to be in possession of the company asset. Not shady at all, in fact, the paper trail specifies everything very plainly and openly.

Only natural persons require the CLEO signature. Some CLEO's have personal prejudices against guns in general, and NFA firearms in particular. They refuse to certify that they have no information showing that you plan to misuse the firearms, which is a no-brainer.

The unintended consequence of their shortsightedness is that citizens living in their jurisdictions no longer inform the CLEO that they plan to acquire a machinegun, or silencer, or destructive device; instead, the CLEO leaves himself out in the dark, while citizens bypass his irrelevant ass quite legally by using corps or LLC's.

If I were sheriff or chief, I'd welcome the taxpayers coming in, discussing their proposed purchase, letting me check them out with the detectives, and then I'd gladly sign off. I'd know what sorts of exotic weapons were in town, they'd enjoy their civil rights. A win-win, really.

As usual, good points...especially the bolded text.