Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
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    Default Carrying During State of Emergency - Question

    In this:
    http://reference.pafoa.org/statutes/...ing-emergency/

    It says:
    (a) General rule.--No person shall carry a firearm upon the public streets or upon any public property during an emergency proclaimed by a State or municipal governmental executive unless that person is:
    (1) Actively engaged in a defense of that person's life or property from peril or threat.
    (2) Licensed to carry firearms under section 6109 (relating to licenses) or is exempt from licensing under section 6106(b) (relating to firearms not to be carried without a license).
    Is there an implied "and" between (1) and (2) or is it an "or" ?

    Thanks.
    Tommy610, NRA Member, Romans 12:18

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Carrying During State of Emergency - Question

    Quote Originally Posted by tommy610 View Post
    In this:
    http://reference.pafoa.org/statutes/...ing-emergency/

    It says:


    Is there an implied "and" between (1) and (2) or is it an "or" ?

    Thanks.
    My understanding of the English language is that this is a list. This would mean that you can replace the colon with either the text in item #1, or item #2 to arrive at a complete sentence.


    ... unless that person is:
    (1) Actively engaged in a defense of that person's life or property from peril or threat.
    (2) Licensed to carry firearms under section 6109 (relating to licenses) or is exempt from licensing under section 6106(b) (relating to firearms not to be carried without a license).

    -- would become --

    ... unless that person is (1) Actively engaged in a defense of that person's life or property from peril or threat.

    ... unless that person is (2) Licensed to carry firearms under section 6109 (relating to licenses) or is exempt from licensing under section 6106(b) (relating to firearms not to be carried without a license).

    Therefore, it would imply an "or".

    However, please remember that English and Legalease are two completely different languages. I'm not an English major, nor am I a lawyer - but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
    ...and the hits just keep on coming. #MAGA

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Carrying During State of Emergency - Question

    Quote Originally Posted by tommy610 View Post
    Is there an implied "and" between (1) and (2) or is it an "or" ?
    very good question. i don't know how the courts view it (or if they even ever have viewed it).

    but here are my thoughts...for whatever little they are worth:

    in general in the english language, when considering such a list that does not explicitly have "and" or "or" between the items, you must go back to the introductory sentence for guidance. usually, that sentence will make it clear which way to go.

    in this case, the introduction is:

    No person shall carry a firearm upon the public streets or upon any public property during an emergency proclaimed by a State or municipal governmental executive unless that person is:
    not exactly crystal clear, but i would argue that this construction means the person must fulfill every requirement on the list.

    this sentence introduces a list of requirements. generally, when such a list is introduced, all of the requirements must be fulfilled unless "OR" is specifically stated.

    for example, if you say:

    "I want a car that is:

    fast;
    red;
    safe."

    you are saying you want a car that is fast, red, and safe. you are not saying you want a car that is fast, red, or safe.

    however, in the case at hand, the list makes a lot more sense with an "OR" rather than an "AND", so...

    yet another example of piss poor sentence construction by our legislators.
    F*S=k

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Carrying During State of Emergency - Question

    Thanks. Even if it is "and", I suppose if I were out on public property during a state of emergency, I'd most likely meet both conditions anyway.
    Tommy610, NRA Member, Romans 12:18

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    Default Re: Carrying During State of Emergency - Question

    Quote Originally Posted by tommy610 View Post
    Thanks. Even if it is "and", I suppose if I were out on public property during a state of emergency, I'd most likely meet both conditions anyway.
    Shooting at the life threatening snow flakes?


    Jan
    So long and thanks for all the fish.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Carrying During State of Emergency - Question

    Quote Originally Posted by tommy610 View Post
    Thanks. Even if it is "and", I suppose if I were out on public property during a state of emergency, I'd most likely meet both conditions anyway.
    If it were an 'and' then just before the situation requiring you to be "Actively engaged in a defense of that person's life or property from peril or threat" how could you legally possess the firearm?

    In other words if both conditions must be met then before the threat occurs you cannot carry the fiirearm in public since you're not "Actively engaged in a defense of that person's life or property from peril or threat". When the threat subsequently occurs you can go into an 'active defense' mode but you're not carrying!

    Both clauses taken as joint, as opposed to exclusive prerequisites, thwarts the purpose of the legislation. For that reason an "OR", not an 'AND', must be assumed.
    IANAL

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Carrying During State of Emergency - Question

    It really would not have hurt the legislature to put "and" or "or" specifically, or "only if all of the following apply" or "if any of the following apply". If a reasonable person can't ascertain what the prohibited conduct is, they have not received fair notice of the prohibited conduct, and the rule of lenity demands they not be prosecuted for it.

    Contrast this with statute with 18 Pa.C.S. 6115: Loans on, or lending or giving firearms prohibited:
    (b) Exception.--
    (1) Subsection (a) shall not apply if any of the following apply:
    (i)
    (ii)
    (iii)
    (iv) The person who receives the firearm meets all of the following:
    (A) Is under 18 years of age.
    (B) Pursuant to section 6110.1 (relating to possession of firearm by minor) is under the supervision, guidance and instruction of a responsible individual who:
    (I) is 21 years of age or older; and
    (II) is not prohibited from owning or possessing a firearm under section 6105 (relating to persons not to possess, use, manufacture, control, sell or transfer firearms).
    (v)
    (vi)


    I think the use of periods makes it more likely that only "any of the following" are required because it's so easy just to put an "and" in there.

    Making penal code is not a trivial thing and the process puts life, liberty, and property at risk and sometimes finally injures people. There shouldn't have to be a guess about what it is wrong to do.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Carrying During State of Emergency - Question

    Look the bottom line is ...Do what you gotta do to protect yourself while moving from point A to point B!

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Carrying During State of Emergency - Question

    A state of emergency is a state of emergency.
    id want more than a pistol during a state of emergency.That means people are raping,looting,and other wonderful things.You don't want to be under-equipped.
    The law wont protect you in a state of emergency as they would be overwhelmed anyways .

    that's what i have to say
    Gott mit uns

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Carrying During State of Emergency - Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Triggerh4ppy View Post
    A state of emergency is a state of emergency.
    id want more than a pistol during a state of emergency.That means people are raping,looting,and other wonderful things.You don't want to be under-equipped.
    The law wont protect you in a state of emergency as they would be overwhelmed anyways .

    that's what i have to say
    Keep in mind a state of emergency can also include storms and natural disasters, not just civil unrest. Of course, civil unrest may be part of the aftermath of a natural disaster.
    When the SHTF......be the fan.

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