AR sniper build

[chuck-10]

Is that right? All day long you shoot a 12"x12" steel target at 500 yards with irons? I would say that if the FAL and shooter can maintain 2 MOA at that distance, than sure, it can be done.

I'm curious though, and have a few questions. Was this with tuned handloads, or factory ammo? If shooting reloads, what's your SD on your load? If factory ammunition, what brand? What position were you shooting from? (offhand, sandbags, bipod, bench, etc). What sights do you have on the rifle? (factory, aftermarket, etc). How were you adjusting these sights for that distance, or were you just using hold over? By the way, what LRF were you using to determine that it was 500 yards? Or were you at a range that has a 500 yard line? If so, what range? Oh and do you mind telling me asking what wind conditoins you were shooting in, and what your wind hold was?

Please don't think that I'm calling you a liar, but I would really like some more information on how you're doing this, because it's not exactly the norm. You're quite a marksman to be able to do this accurate of shooting at those distances with the platform that you mentioned, and it's inherent slop. Thanks for your reply.

I use the factory sights,china sport surplus ammo.Shippensburg fish and game is the range.They have,25,50,100,200,300,400,500 and 850 yard areas.Wind was calm at the 500,they have flags at each target.I do use sand bags.My friend can do it with his garand,Why do you think its that hard.I go to the range to have fun.I think its more fun to make good shoots with a cheaper rifle.Have you ever seen the youtube vid of the guy using a stock mosin sniper making shots at 1000yrds.He did have custom loads.All im saying is if you have a AR,FAL,MOSIN or a high dollar rife,just go out and have fun.You may suprise yourself on what you can do.

[aubie515]

You are too funny...you made my evening. I cannot stop laughing at your comments tonight. Why bother with these wannabe commandos on this forum? I completely agree with everything that you are saying about the FAL. I own one and while it's a great MBR...it's not a precision tool. Don't waste your time trying to debate with these people. You don't need to lower your standards.

To the OP...what do you want to do with your weapon? If it's just punching paper and distance is 300 yards (I don't consider that LR)...an AR15 will do the job. It is all going to boil down to how much money you want to spend because that is going to determine how much you have to spend on the weapon platform, optics (very important) and cost of mags and ammo. If you are not reloading, you want something in a common caliber IE...223/5.56 or 308 are the standards. If you reload and have more disposable income...I say there are far better caliber options than .223 and .308.

The tough part about shooting LR in PA is that you are limited by the ranges because most gun ranges in PA are 100 and 200 if you are lucky. There are only a handful of ranges that offer you more distance. If you have access to private land...you should count your blessings and take advantage of 500+ yards.

Let Tomcat and I know if you need anything else.

Is that right? All day long you shoot a 12"x12" steel target at 500 yards with irons? I would say that if the FAL and shooter can maintain 2 MOA at that distance, than sure, it can be done.

I'm curious though, and have a few questions. Was this with tuned handloads, or factory ammo? If shooting reloads, what's your SD on your load? If factory ammunition, what brand? What position were you shooting from? (offhand, sandbags, bipod, bench, etc). What sights do you have on the rifle? (factory, aftermarket, etc). How were you adjusting these sights for that distance, or were you just using hold over? By the way, what LRF were you using to determine that it was 500 yards? Or were you at a range that has a 500 yard line? If so, what range? Oh and do you mind telling me asking what wind conditoins you were shooting in, and what your wind hold was?

Please don't think that I'm calling you a liar, but I would really like some more information on how you're doing this, because it's not exactly the norm. You're quite a marksman to be able to do this accurate of shooting at those distances with the platform that you mentioned, and it's inherent slop. Thanks for your reply.

[Tomcat088]

You are too funny...you made my evening. I cannot stop laughing at your comments tonight. Why bother with these wannabe commandos on this forum? I completely agree with everything that you are saying about the FAL. I own one and while it's a great MBR...it's not a precision tool. Don't waste your time trying to debate with these people. You don't need to lower your standards.

:-), always good when I can give you a laugh, lol. Man, sometimes I don't want to deal with all of it, but you know me and "on principle alone". I just hate to see someone misled by a couple of guys that want to pretend that their FAL's (or whatever else) are precision weapons. When they all start ganging up together like that, they sometimes convince the newbies, or even people that just happened across the thread from a search engine. Maybe I'm just being hard headed, it wouldn't be the first time, lol. I'll try not to lower my standards though. I figure I'll make one post for others to see, so I don't have to debate with them (since they've already convinced themselves), and just leave it at that.

[aubie515]

There is a lot of misinformation online and it's sad to see it on a firearm forum. Seems everyone is a legend in their own mind. I know one thing...I've tried about every weapon platform out there, so I can make statements based on owning them. Seems to many are new to firearms themselves and yet they give their opinions as if they invented these weapons. It happens on a lot of forums that I belong to, but it still works on my nerves. You are a better man for trying to do the right thing. I've developed such a tough skin over the years, that I don't even bother.


Sorry for the hijack. Here is an AR15 I just refinished last Thursday in Norrell's Moly Resin OD Green. It started life out as an RRA 20" Predator Persuit upper. I replaced the crappy FF tube with a YHM rifle length Diamond rail. From RRA the rifle is guaranteed to shoot at least .75" at 100 yards.





A DPMS 308LR that I sold last year to a fellow PAFOAer


Remington 5R with AICS stock I sold to the same gentleman as the DPMS

[aubie515]

Not the dreaded double tap...geesh that along with a toe picture.

[PhilaShooter]

While some of what you've said is true about the FAL, I would NOT recommend it for a "precision rifle". Have you been sipping on the FAL Kool-aid Philashooter? I mean, yes the .308 has been a cartridge that snipers have effectively used, but in much different platforms. Even the semi auto platforms aren't using as short of a barrel as most FAL's. 20" bolt guns sometimes have problems really reaching out long range in .308, but doing it with a short gas operated action is NOT gonna happen. Shooting a bullet that's already "dragging balls" from a shorter barrel in a gas operated system is DEFINITELY not optimum. You see longer barrels on all semi auto "sniper rifles" for a reason, and lots of them are chamberd in cartridges bigger than .308. Although I do agree that the cartrdge (not necessarily rifle) would work for the OP's intended distances.

My question to you is: "What exactly do you consider 'accurate as hell'?" Most FAL's I know of even with quality ammunition, don't do much better than 2 MOA even at closer ranges. It's only gonna get worse as shooter errors are magnified at distance, and the bullet slows down. That's fine and dandy for an accurate battle rifle, but it's PISS POOR for a real precision rifle. Even in .223, a person can build an AR that will outshoot a FAL at any distance out to 300 yards, and sometimes beyond that. I don't see the point in spending right around $1,000 or more for a 2 MOA rifle that you want to be your "precision rig". Someone could buy a Savage rifle and a pretty decent beginner LR scope for that amount of money, and it'll RUN CIRCLES around the FAL. You could also get an AR-10 for a little more than the FAL that would run circles around the FAL (in terms of accuracy) at EVERY DISTANCE.

You mention "availability of parts" as a major deciding factor, and I agree that it's important. The problem with this is that there are very few "available parts" that aid the FAL in being a true "precision rifle". The OP didn't ask for a battle rifle that's "good enough" or "accurate enough" for "minute of person" or something like that, they asked for a real precision rifle. As you said, the FAL is a nice reliable rifle and the "right hand of the free world", but it's still not much of a precision rifle. In terms of "precision rifle" application, the choices are almost COMPLETELY limited with an FAL.

THIS IS MY OPINION

First off, they did NOT ask for a "precision rifle" they asked for something that would shoot 300+ yards....they DID use the term "sniper rifle" but that would be neither a FAL or AR-10 in true respect.

Second, the AR-10 has A LOT of problems IMO, depending on the builder of course, since the platform was NOT meant for .308 but .556 instead.

Third, I don't know what FAL's you "know" but the "people" I know that OWN FAL's can shoot them with just as good MOA's as an AR-10...ANY day.

Fourth, the barrel on a FAL can be up to AND including 21". An AR-10 barrel is up to and including 24" and some a little over 19"...not THAT much of a diffrence...hmm. HOWEVER, you can get them with smaller "carbine" barrels but NOT all are smaller barrels, like my 21" barrel FAL, which also happens to shoot roughly 1/2" to 1" MOA's at 100 yards and I don't use special ammo just whatever the gun shop has in stock AND I am also not a great shooter either, average, not great. That is also WITH iron sights, no scope.

Fifth, Just because YOU do not like the FAL DOES NOT mean it is not a GREAT rifle than CAN shoot VERY accurate. Also from a lot of reviews I have read on AR-10's the rifle heats up VERY fast because it was not meant for that caliber, I can not prove this but I have read it.

Sixth, there are ENDLESS spare parts AND accessories for the FAL rifle, I NEVER said anything that would make it more of a "true percision rifle" but there aren't any for the AR-10 either. The rifles are VERY diffrent in terms of function and how they shoot BUT the FAL is MORE reliable in most ANY type of situation and IMO JUST AS accurate if not more accurate. There are your normal accessories of course such as free floating handguards. What exactly does the AR-10 have accessory wise that makes it more of a, as you said, "true precision rifle" than the FAL...???

Seventh, If the AR-10 does in fact heat up as fast as some reviews have said then your FORCED to stop shooting and let it cool MUCH more than you would have to with a FAL. SHTF you don't want to have to wait for a $2000 rifle to "cool off" IMO, I'm shootin till my area is clear and think most anyone else would also. BTW my FAL cost $650 with 4 mags and FREE shipping.

Eighth AND most Important, this is NOT a pissing match between you and I, this is a thread to give your OPINION to help the OP guy out with his decision in a rifle. I choose the FAL because I am farmiliar with it and KNOW from my experiences that it is very accurate AND reliable and IMO better than an AR-10. If you want to have a pissing contest feel free to PM me as I will NOT comment further in someone else's thread, sorry for the ignorance as I felt the need to defend my OPINION against this rude person.

As previously stated I WOULD go with a FAL, they CAN shoot long range or at least as far as what your looking for and are very reliable. Good luck with whatever you decide on.


Edit: This is not a bashing on AR-10's either, I happen to like them and the 2 that I shot were very nice, and accurate. But I do not feel they are any more accurate or more of a "true precision rifle" than a FAL. That being said it depends on what your looking to spend and what your looking to get from the rifle. Maybe you don't want a .308. I just purchased a Stag Arms 20" barrel AR-15 myself, I haven't gotten to really test how far and accurate she is past 100 yards but she seemed right on at 50-100yrds. I would think at 300yrds with the right ammo she would do just fine but since I have not had that experience myself maybe someone was has can elaborate more.

[ScotsGuards]

I may have missed it but I didn't see a cost range you were willing to go.
My first choice for a medium cost range precision rifle would be a Styer SSG in 7.62 NATO with a good quality Leopuld scope on top. You should be able to bring this in under $2,000.00 for the total package if you shop around.

I have a SSG with an older Redfield wide angle Acutrack that was sighted in when I got it. (Used police rifle) At 200 Meters using US issue M-118 Special Ball it shoots 5 round groups I can cover with a quarter and that's with my old decrepid eyesight.

[bgeddes]

Why bother with these wannabe commandos on this forum?

I am glad you are certain of my background. Must be nice to know everything.

[Tomcat088]

I use the factory sights,china sport surplus ammo.Shippensburg fish and game is the range.They have,25,50,100,200,300,400,500 and 850 yard areas.Wind was calm at the 500,they have flags at each target.I do use sand bags.My friend can do it with his garand,Why do you think its that hard.I go to the range to have fun.I think its more fun to make good shoots with a cheaper rifle.Have you ever seen the youtube vid of the guy using a stock mosin sniper making shots at 1000yrds.He did have custom loads.All im saying is if you have a AR,FAL,MOSIN or a high dollar rife,just go out and have fun.You may suprise yourself on what you can do.

First off, I want to apologize to the OP for taking this thread a bit off topic. Either way, this is the only post I'm gonna make about the subject, and I'll leave the rest up to the others viewing this thread. I just don't want people to get misled about which rifle does what.

Hmm, alright, well that's pretty interesting. From what I've found, the ammo that you're shooting is a 147 grain bullet from the .308. Federal/Wikipedia show that from a BOLT GUN with a 24" barrel, the velocity for a 150 grain bullet is moving 2,820 fps. I assure you that an FAL even with a 24" barrel (most have a 21.1" barrel) will have FAR less velocity. It's a semi automatic gas gun, so it bleeds off gas to cycle the action, and will have less velocity. Still, I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt and run the numbers from a 24" bolt action rifle of a 147 grain .308 bullet doing 2,820 fps at standard elevation, temp and pressure. I used a G1 BC of .423, which is the BC for a 150 grain Hornady A-max BOATTAIL. So I'm actually giving the bullet a slightly better BC than what a lighter, less aerodynamic bullet would actually have, that probably is not a boattail design.

I do want to mention that even when FAL's are shooting pretty good, most of them are 2 MOA, although with certain loads they're sometimes at the 4 MOA threshold. Remember that, we'll come back to it later. It should also be mentioned that very rare is wind less than 1 mph. Usually wind blows at least 2-3 mph, and even winds those light are barely able to be felt on the face and are read with mirage and windflags. When you get to 3mph, and cross over into heavier wind, THEN it's possible to feel it on the face and hands. Chuck-10, you mention that the wind was "calm" at the 500 yard target, but wind actually has the greatest effect on the bullet at the shooter. A slight amount of movement from the bullet there, will only be magnified with distance. Either way, there was most likely at least a 2-3mph wind when you were shooting. So what is the numbers for a 1 mph crosswind at 500 yards? The bullet is pushed around 2.3" from a 1mph crosswind, and 6.8" with a 3mph crosswind. Obviously if you're a bit higher, it would be a VERY slightly smaller number, but that's pretty close. So why is this number so important?

On an FAL with factory sights, obviously you could have adjusted the "ramp" on the rear sight so that you were "zero'ed" in terms of elevation for 500 yards. It's still not something that most people do, and that you'd have to do for that particular load. At 500 yards, with no magnification, the front sight on the firearm will look the same size or larger than the 12" target is. That in and of itself makes it difficult to aim or hold the center of the target. So let's say that you're a good shooter and do what you should, you hold the center of the target. So this means that you have 6" of the target on one side, and 6" on the other, because you're holding dead center; which this would be VERY difficult when the front sight looks the same size or larger than the target, but we'll said for arguements sake that you did. This still causes a bit of a problem.

Even with a 3mph wind somewhere between you and the target, the bullet is pushed roughly 6.8". The problem with that is that it's actually more than what your hold on the center of the target is (6"). Let's say that the wind was only blowing 2 mph, the bullet gets pushed over 4.6". This means by holding center, you'd BARELY get a hit on the edge of the target. OH, did I forget to mention that this is with a 0 MOA RIFLE?? That means with absolutely NO RIFLE ERROR or VARIATION, and with NO SHOOTER ERROR, just the wind will practically result in a miss. Let's say that the FAL is a 2 MOA shooter, that means at 500 yards, it can barely keep all the bullets on a 10" plate WITHOUT any wind or shooter variation. So that means that just from the the variation in the rifle, you have 2" TOTAL to miss for the wind call. That means that you missed your wind call by less than 1 MPH to get consistent hits on target. Let's say for arguement sake that your FAL is a 1 MOA shooter (and it's not), that means it'll put all the bullets on a 5" plate. That would leave us with 7" TOTAL to miss the wind call by; we're holding the middle of the plate though, so that means we get 3.5" on each side. That's a lot better margin of error than the 2 MOA rifle, but it still means that you can't miss the wind call by even 2 mph.

Now I'm sure that you're a good marksman, but not missing the windcall by even 2 mph is WORLD CLASS shooting. I still can't wrap my finger around how you were reading the wind that well at all the target on the windflags without any magnification or even a hint from mirage. I also don't think that your FAL is a 1 MOA rifle, but even if it is, you'd have to be a heck of a shooter. Keep in mind that all of these numbers DO NOT account for any deviation from the surplus ammo that you're shooting, and it's quite a lot. Also remember that your gas gun doesn't even has numbers that are good as the ones I calculated all this with, so your chances of making the hits are even LESS.

I don't think that shooting 500 yards is "hard", I do it quite often. Even with a good rifle, I still wouldn't call it "easy"; on a bad day good shooters will struggle at 500 yards. Sure I believe that your buddy can do it with a good load in his Garand, but some Garands aren't exactly a 2 MOA shooter either. I imagine if your friend is doing it regularly, he's making some adjustments for wind too. That's what cracks me up, you basically made it sound like you were holding dead on (after dialing the distance) and making hits. If you would have said "held the edge", it MIGHT have made it more believable to some people. Yes, I like to go to the range for fun too, although I find making reliable cold bore hits more fun than "plinking". I understand that making shots with "cheaper rifles" can be fun, but there's a difference between doing it with equipment that it's possible with, and saying that you can reliably do it "all day long" with a platform that it's almost impossible to do it with. I can see how it could happen once in a blue moon, or "one time", but I can't see it happening "all day long". Unlike a lot of people on forums, I get out and get some time behind the trigger, and at ranges that people ONLY TALK ABOUT. I do it on a regular basis, and yes sometimes I surprise myself; if I did something like that with a FAL, I just might $H!# myself. You and others may disagree, but I'll leave ya'll to your Kool-aid. Best of luck to you.

[aubie515]

THIS IS MY OPINION


Third, I don't know what FAL's you "know" but the "people" I know that OWN FAL's can shoot them with just as good MOA's as an AR-10...ANY day.

I've heard of people "talking out of their arse" before, but I've never seen someone type out of their arse. Your statement is complete BS. Aren't you the same guy that was crying about your Century built FAL having issues a few months ago?

I own an FAL and while I like it...I would never say it was in the same league as the DPMS LR308. For you to say that your FAL will shoot just as well as a DPMS LR is just silly. If you are that confident with your Century FAL(monkey's have been rumored to build these for Century)...I'd be more than happy to put up a wager with you. Even though I sold my two DPMS LR rifles...I'll go out and buy one just to compete with you. Winner takes the losers rifle. How does that sound?