Firearms rights: Jewish high schoolers debate with gun-rights champion

[Gtbullet]

Wow, we need many more of our children talking about these issues, I think this is great...

http://www.sltrib.com/utahpolitics/ci_12805527


Several of the students had a knee-jerk reaction when gun-rights advocate Clark Aposhian blasted his first pistol round into a target Thursday. But it was physical, not ideological.

These students from around America were in Salt Lake City to learn and test their beliefs, not to dismiss opposing views.

Roughly 40 Jewish high schoolers traveling the country are hearing from experts on opposing sides of the nation's most politically charged issues. Aposhian was the National Rifle Association's face for the day after the group's stop in Colorado to hear from a gun-control advocate whose child died in the Columbine school shootings.

"You've met the NRA," tour leader Billy Planer told the students after Aposhian finished demonstrating two handguns and an automatic machine gun. "It's not so demonizing."

Guns are not a natural fit for some of the children, most of whom live in Eastern cities and, Planer said, liberal families. But after hearing Aposhian's hourlong defense of gun rights just before the demonstration, some said they appreciate his opinions even if they disagree.

Boston teenager Sarah Cohen acknowledged she's no Second Amendment scholar, but she couldn't understand Aposhian's support for public ownership of machine guns.

"There's a difference between having a gun for self-protection and having a gun for the military," she said.

Josh Braude, a Northbrook, Ill., student, was disturbed by that Utah permits


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concealed weapons.

"That's scary because people might have more of a tendency to fire the gun instead of calming down the argument," he said.

Some of the students agreed with Aposhian's defense of admittedly unnecessary or impractical guns -- essentially "why not?" -- and whooped at the noise on the firing range.

Aposhian, the most active lobbyist for gun-rights issues on Utah's Capitol Hill, addressed the students in a room at the Lee Kay Center for Hunter Education. Throughout his talk, a half dozen hands remained always in the air: Don't guns increase suicide? Aren't machine guns simply killing machines? Doesn't easy gun access increase violent crime?

The answer to all three of those particular questions is "no," in Aposhian's view. Japan has fewer guns but more suicides, he said. Machine guns are designed to make people take cover, and are less effective killers than rifles, he said. And he referred to studies indicating gun access reduces crime.

Many of the students questioned his assertions. Some agreed with him. When someone asked why he should have a machine gun, he asked why he shouldn't. He wants one, he said, and it's no different from someone wanting a faster car than they need.

"It's a bull answer," Newton, Pa., student Seth Novick said later, "but it's still a true answer. You don't need it, but you can have it."

It was the seventh time Aposhian has hosted the group's summer tour, and he said he's trying to dull some of the gun hype that young Americans hear elsewhere.

Planer has guided each of those trips for the Atlanta-based youth education group and said many retain an anti-gun resolve -- and some are frightened to hear gunfire -- but they respect the debate.

"They walk away realizing sometimes the vilified other side isn't the enemy," he said. "It's just somebody who disagrees with them.

[chucksniper]

He should have told these kids the truth about "easy access" to guns... "why shouldn't they be able to by anything and as much as they want", isn't enough of an answer, control is the issue here. Just because it "easy", to access guns, in the free market,... will restriction cause the easy access to decrease? NOT. What about an easier access such as drug cartels? Drugs and guns sounds better to sell than just drugs. Ya think?

The second ammendment does list restrictions, does it? I would have to say that criminals don't get guns leagally, do they? Especially handguns, which by the way are the most used weapons around.

[V65Magnafan]

I would have reminded the kids about the Warsaw Ghetto.

The Weimar Republic instituted gun registration. When Hitler took power, he warned gun owners to hand in their firearms or face death. Now that the populace except for Nazi party members was disarmed, the genocide could begin.

In Warsaw Poland, herded into a ghetto, Jews were able to hold off the Nazi death squads because Christian Polish partisans supplied the Jewish resistance with firearms and ammo smuggled in. When the last of the partisans were killed, the ghetto victims ran out of ammo and were slaughtered.

North American Jews have forgotten this fact. They say that it could never happen here. They also forget that Germany was an advanced democracy that was hit by a very bad depression.

Enough said?

[Shawn.L]

I would have reminded the kids about the Warsaw Ghetto.

The Weimar Republic instituted gun registration. When Hitler took power, he warned gun owners to hand in their firearms or face death. Now that the populace except for Nazi party members was disarmed, the genocide could begin.

In Warsaw Poland, herded into a ghetto, Jews were able to hold off the Nazi death squads because Christian Polish partisans supplied the Jewish resistance with firearms and ammo smuggled in. When the last of the partisans were killed, the ghetto victims ran out of ammo and were slaughtered.

North American Jews have forgotten this fact. They say that it could never happen here. They also forget that Germany was an advanced democracy that was hit by a very bad depression.

Enough said?

My family tree starts with my grandfather who escaped Poland to fight the Germans.
Anyone wanna guess where the rest of my family history went?

It always amazes me that a culture so steeped in remembrance, full to the brim of holy days to remember the sufferage of our past and the many times we have been the victims of an attempted genocide can ignore the simple truth about individual liberty.

two side notes:
1) The movie "Defiance" with Daniel Craig, rent it
2) We always get lots of jewish families up at PMSC for the kids .22 shoots.

[V65Magnafan]

It always amazes me that a culture so steeped in remembrance, full to the brim of holy days to remember the sufferage of our past and the many times we have been the victims of an attempted genocide can ignore the simple truth about individual liberty.

It absolutely boggles my mind. I often think of what groupthink psychological abnormalities can account for this subconscious flirtation with perpetual victimhood, but I always draw blanks.

I have many friends and relatives with this attitude--not just Jewish people. I have told them not to expect a courtesy gun and ammo from me if TSHTF.

[FNG19]

North American Jews have forgotten this fact. They say that it could never happen here. They also forget that Germany was an advanced democracy that was hit by a very bad depression.

Careful, there. This North American Jew hasn't forgotten, but that's not why I own guns.

[FNG19]

1) The movie "Defiance" with Daniel Craig, rent it
2) We always get lots of jewish families up at PMSC for the kids .22 shoots.

Add the book Mila 18 to your list. It's a fictional account, but it's based on reality.

[V65Magnafan]

Careful, there. This North American Jew hasn't forgotten, but that's not why I own guns.

You're right. I shouldn't generalize.

[Adam-12]

2) We always get lots of jewish families up at PMSC for the kids .22 shoots.

It warms my heart every time I see it, and Mark does a great job putting these together. A great time is had by all.

[Warpt762x39]

1) The movie "Defiance" with Daniel Craig, rent it

Another one to add would be Escape From Sobibor.

It absolutely boggles my mind. I often think of what groupthink psychological abnormalities can account for this subconscious flirtation with perpetual victimhood, but I always draw blanks.

I have many friends and relatives with this attitude--not just Jewish people. I have told them not to expect a courtesy gun and ammo from me if TSHTF.

I don't mean to come off as racist or anything as I'm not. But I believe a great number of blacks, hispanics and other minorities have this mentality as well.

I think part of the reason this mentality exists is to either get sympathy or to try and push themselves and their race/religion/group above others.

In too many cases, it is simply a card that they play when things don't go their way.



On a side note: Did anyone hear about the family finding the briefcase with the real Schindler's list of Jews he saved? I can't find an article on it but there was a quick blurb about it on Headline News a while ago.