PA Gun Purchase Denial for a M1 conviction

[Soldat222]

The funny thing about stupid decisions is that people who make those bad decisions tend to keep making them. For the statistical minority who really learn from a bad decision and won't repeat it, there is a board of pardons.

Maybe many criminals stay criminals because once you get a felony conviction and do prison time this country makes it damn near impossible for you to ever get a decent job again and make an honest living.

[GunLawyer001]

Maybe many criminals stay criminals because once you get a felony conviction and do prison time this country makes it damn near impossible for you to ever get a decent job again and make an honest living.

The nation owes nothing to criminals, beyond avoiding cruel & unusual punishment.

Criminals forfeit much when they choose to violate the rights of others, and they have to eat a lot of crap to earn their way after that. Many of my clients are people who made mistakes, then did the hard work to prove themselves. They take crappy jobs, they toe the line, they show that the bad thing they did 10 or 20 years ago was a learning experience, and they changed their friends and they changed their lives. Having 10 years of gainful employment as a janitor or mechanic or landscaper is what earns you a second chance.

Don't even think about blaming the straights for judging someone. That judgment was earned. It's obscene to demand that the world play "make believe" and pretend that you didn't rob a gas station or kidnap a kid. People don't do prison time for victimless first offenses, for the most part, and those who do are going to be judged based on what they did, not the fact of the prison time. If you go to jail under mandatory sentencing for having an unloaded gun in your trunk, you'll have an easier time finding post-release employment than if you did time for stealing from your last boss.

It also helps to bring something to the employment table. If you're famous and have a lot of personal contacts, then when you get out that will pay off. Maybe you get a TV show. If you're not famous, and you lack any skills, and you have a poor command of the language and a short temper, then expect to be very conscious of the scrap value of abandoned metal items, because that's your career for a while.

BTW, the first step in "not being a criminal" anymore seems to be giving up alcohol and drugs. Seems like almost 100% of crime stems from a lifestyle that relies on weed and booze to blind the perp to the pathetic reality of his marginal life. Sure, there are lots of people who drink a bit and even smoke weed without committing other crimes. But ALL of the criminals are boozers and tokers, as near as I can tell. My clients who have honestly and provably reformed have very often given up the chemical recreations, found stable friends and a good spouse, and worked hard at it. That's partly why I have a high rate of successful Pardon applications, because I weed out the people who didn't learn. My people have earned a second chance instead of whining about the consequences of their own bad acts.

[Soldat222]

The nation owes nothing to criminals, beyond avoiding cruel & unusual punishment.

Criminals forfeit much when they choose to violate the rights of others, and they have to eat a lot of crap to earn their way after that. Many of my clients are people who made mistakes, then did the hard work to prove themselves. They take crappy jobs, they toe the line, they show that the bad thing they did 10 or 20 years ago was a learning experience, and they changed their friends and they changed their lives. Having 10 years of gainful employment as a janitor or mechanic or landscaper is what earns you a second chance.

Really? I thought the prison sentence was supposed to be their punishment. I never knew an ex con then owed society a lifetime of being treated as a second class citizen after.

Honestly, if you don't see how a man who robbed a store, served his time, and honestly wants to change might turn back to crime rather than eat shit and live a life of indigence you are not grounded in reality. Refusing to give ex cons a second chance breeds recidivism and makes career criminals.

“Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;"

[GunLawyer001]

Really? I thought the prison sentence was supposed to be their punishment. I never knew an ex con then owed society a lifetime of being treated as a second class citizen after.

Honestly, if you don't see how a man who robbed a store, served his time, and honestly wants to change might turn back to crime rather than eat shit and live a life of indigence you are not grounded in reality. Refusing to give ex cons a second chance breeds recidivism and makes career criminals.

“Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;"

"Reality"? Reality is that your entitlement to a second chance imposes an obligation on someone to ignore the facts. If you raped your last girlfriend, good luck with getting a date with some other woman. If you embezzled from your last employer, no business is obliged to hire you over some other guy who managed to avoid crime.

You own your deeds, whether you went to night school to learn accounting and small engine repair, or you and you buddies thought it would be a good idea to steal copper wire from some small business. You should be judged by what you have done. And if you've played stupid games, you win stupid prizes.

This entitlement mentality, the one that refuses to acknowledge that others don't exist for your personal benefit, is what's destroying the USA and has given us a $15 trillion debt. Our society has agreed that everyone has rights, even in the absence of corollary obligations. We can't tax enough to cover the entitlements, so we've borrowed it. And your lame scheme where "somebody" should ignore reality and employ someone who has demonstrated an inability or unwillingness to obey the law, is just as bad an idea.

You earn a second chance, or you don't get one. If you don't like the life of an ex-con, there's a simple way to avoid it.

[Soldat222]

"Reality"? Reality is that your entitlement to a second chance imposes an obligation on someone to ignore the facts. If you raped your last girlfriend, good luck with getting a date with some other woman. If you embezzled from your last employer, no business is obliged to hire you over some other guy who managed to avoid crime.

You own your deeds, whether you went to night school to learn accounting and small engine repair, or you and you buddies thought it would be a good idea to steal copper wire from some small business. You should be judged by what you have done. And if you've played stupid games, you win stupid prizes.

This entitlement mentality, the one that refuses to acknowledge that others don't exist for your personal benefit, is what's destroying the USA and has given us a $15 trillion debt. Our society has agreed that everyone has rights, even in the absence of corollary obligations. We can't tax enough to cover the entitlements, so we've borrowed it. And your lame scheme where "somebody" should ignore reality and employ someone who has demonstrated an inability or unwillingness to obey the law, is just as bad an idea.

You earn a second chance, or you don't get one. If you don't like the life of an ex-con, there's a simple way to avoid it.

See, I think it is more of a Christian "don't be a piece of shit to your fellow man" mentality.

People like you keep recidivism rates high. Just admit it. We are talking about theft here, not rape, so enough of your straw man. Yes, there is an easy way to avoid the life of an ex con, and more often than not it is go back to being an active criminal. That is how it is and will be if ex cons are treated like lepers and never give the chance to change.

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" and we all have some dirt, you included. People are people, people fuck up, people change.

But no, your way is working good, that must be why the bestest freest country on the planet has more people in prison than any other nation on Earth.

[GunLawyer001]

See, I think it is more of a Christian "don't be a piece of shit to your fellow man" mentality.

People like you keep recidivism rates high. Just admit it. We are talking about theft here, not rape, so enough of your straw man. Yes, there is an easy way to avoid the life of an ex con, and more often than not it is go back to being an active criminal. That is how it is and will be if ex cons are treated like lepers and never give the chance to change.

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" and we all have some dirt, you included. People are people, people fuck up, people change.

But no, your way is working good, that must be why the bestest freest country on the planet has more people in prison than any other nation on Earth.

You have an unpleasant combination of anger, ignorance, hostility, and irrationality. No wonder so few people are willing to engage you in discussion, the way your go-to play is to go personal.

You don't know me, you have no basis whatsoever for saying that I "have some dirt", even if that self-serving assumption helps you justify whatever evil you've done in your life. I've done more to help people move forward and get their rights restored than you ever will, and the first step is to embrace the fact that you did wrong, and that LOSES you opportunities, you don't GAIN rights by fucking up.
Recidivism happens because people get a pass on what they did, not because they are punished too harshly. Nobody rushes out and buys another product because they fell that the last one cost them too much, and crime is much the same. If you steal because you thought you could get away with it, then who in their right mind would hand you the keys to their business?

I'm bailing on your attacks now, before you descend completely into libel. Feel free to try to engage someone else, perhaps you won't be held accountable for your previous posts. After all, don't we all OWE YOU Internet conversation no matter what you've posted before?

[Soldat222]

You have an unpleasant combination of anger, ignorance, hostility, and irrationality. No wonder so few people are willing to engage you in discussion, the way your go-to play is to go personal.

You have an unpleasant amount of righteousness and arrogance. You wish to damn your fellow men for their lives because of a mistake they made once. Shame on you. I went personal and got hostile? It was you who started the tirade about my alleged "entitlement mentality" and all sorts of BS because I think a man deserves a second chance.

You don't know me, you have no basis whatsoever for saying that I "have some dirt", even if that self-serving assumption helps you justify whatever evil you've done in your life.

Yeah, I am sure you never done anything wrong ever. In all your years on this Earth you have lived the life of a Saint. Sounds real believable.
So pretty much you would be the guy to throw the first stone. Got it.

You just made yet another personal attack by the way, since you say I am the personal one.

I've done more to help people move forward and get their rights restored than you ever will,

You say I do not know you, then you presume to know me? You know not what I have done or what I will do. I have much life to live.

and the first step is to embrace the fact that you did wrong, and that LOSES you opportunities, you don't GAIN rights by fucking up.

Where did I say every ex con deserves an expansion of rights? I never did. I said an ex con has served his time, paid his debt to society, and should be given the ability to go straight and succeed. Sorry, but a felon is going to go back to robbing and slinging if the only alternative is unemployment or McDonalds for their lives. Its just a better economic choice.

Recidivism happens because people get a pass on what they did

Really? I know great deal of people with a masters in Criminology who would disagree with you. Your explanation is incredibly simplistic and largely incorrect.

I'm bailing on your attacks now, before you descend completely into libel. Feel free to try to engage someone else, perhaps you won't be held accountable for your previous posts. After all, don't we all OWE YOU Internet conversation no matter what you've posted before?

Attempt to paint me as the bad guy and go out in a torrent of righteous indignation. Well played.

[PA1936MN]

FYI one can only change if one wants to change... You, your mother, your dog even the law cannot "change" someone. The only person who can "change" oneself is oneself.

And writting that you want to change on an internet forum isn't evidence enough you want to change or have changed for the better.

Please don't bring religion into this. Has nothing to do with religion. Seperation of church and state.

[Philadelphia]

You wish to damn your fellow men for their lives because of a mistake they made once. Shame on you. I went personal and got hostile? It was you who started the tirade about my alleged "entitlement mentality" and all sorts of BS because I think a man deserves a second chance.
. . .

I think the issue was gun rights. If you want to hire criminals to reduce recidivism, I would be very interested in the results, but that may be for another thread. I do a lot of work with criminals and while I strongly agree that having a job is critical to reducing recidivism, I also have good reason to be strongly convinced that there is far more to that issue than simply handing out "second chances" on a silver platter. Again, maybe all that's more appropriate for another thread.

For this thread, if you are convicted of an M1 theft and serve the sentence, a parting gift is not a gun. Once a citizen demonstrates a propensity to make very bad choices, the road back to gun ownership can be a long one. Is that something you disagree with? I guess I get to suggest the straw man that according to you, the load out handed to convicts upon release from prison would be a set of clothes, a gun and a holster? Guns for sale at the prison canteen for distribution upon release? ;-)

[GunLawyer001]

I think the issue was gun rights. If you want to hire criminals to reduce recidivism, I would be very interested in the results, but that may be for another thread. I do a lot of work with criminals and while I strongly agree that having a job is critical to reducing recidivism, I also have good reason to be strongly convinced that there is far more to that issue than simply handing out "second chances" on a silver platter. Again, maybe all that's more appropriate for another thread.

For this thread, if you are convicted of an M1 theft and serve the sentence, a parting gift is not a gun. Once a citizen demonstrates a propensity to make very bad choices, the road back to gun ownership can be a long one. Is that something you disagree with? I guess I get to suggest the straw man that according to you, the load out handed to convicts upon release from prison would be a set of clothes, a gun and a holster? Guns for sale at the prison canteen for distribution upon release? ;-)

I agree, people who have stolen can be presumed to be people who will steal, unless they prove otherwise. It's bad enough that jurors in future trials will be denied the knowledge that the accused in the latest theft was convicted of stealing before; it crosses the line into insanity to expect that private businesses will close their eyes and bump ex-cons up in the hiring line.

If you have a conviction and you have useful skills, then you can probably find employment. If you lack skills, then why would anyone hire you over some other candidate who avoided crimes?

In the Obama depression, there are many applicants for every job. Employers can afford to write off the criminals and hire the law-abiding for any decent job. For the less-decent jobs, employers are willing to hire non-citizens who are illegally here, and others who have made choices that give them little bargaining power.

Employers don't exist for the benefit of employees, any more than employees exist for the benefit of employers. It's just as unfair to demand that employees put in extra time for free as it is to demand that employers hire people who pose a risk of theft, embezzlement, side-dealing, falsified time cards, shifting of blame, and other acts of dishonesty. If your employer hired someone with a history of uncontrolled violence and that person beat the crap out of you in the break room, guess who gets sued? Yep, the good-hearted employer.