Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
Page 8 of 10 FirstFirst ... 45678910 LastLast
Results 71 to 80 of 97
  1. #71
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    York, Pennsylvania
    (York County)
    Posts
    1,411
    Rep Power
    21474845

    Default Re: Proposed Second Buck Tag: Admitted Money Grab

    Quote Originally Posted by CMP703006 View Post
    So I'm from the philly burbs and we drove up to deer camp in not a Range Rover (Toyota Sequoia) and I carried a bunch of "gear" ("expensive" gun, hand-me-down clothes) plus I shot a deer to take to the taxidermist and put in an office (not enough wall space in the man cave). Does that mean I fall under the "gentry hunter" category?
    Yup.
    DGAF

  2. #72
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    A spot, Pennsylvania
    (Bucks County)
    Posts
    135
    Rep Power
    4699795

    Default Re: Proposed Second Buck Tag: Admitted Money Grab

    Quote Originally Posted by Williamsmith View Post
    What your first analysis says is that the current management model with its various antler restrictions by zones, has room for additional harvests. So how scientific is it really if we are going to say that a portion of the deer herd is statistically insignificant and worthy of selling to the general public under the the management theory of - generating revenue.

    Perhaps a better way would be to claim that the management model is scientifically foundational and as such there is no wiggle room for using the wildlife as simply a resource for generating revenue. Understanding that opening this door a crack could lead to the expansion of this tactic. This would eventually lead to disreagard for management altogether as the Commission chases more and more revenue to support its burgeoning budget.

    The hunter who accidentally shoots an illegal four point with brow times in a three up zone and gets whacked for a violation might reflect on the fairness of the law unfavorably knowing the Commission is selling the head of other deer for spurious reasons.

    If hunters increased in the Commonwealth, I assure you the Commission would expand. So as hunters decrease in the Commonwealth....should not the Commission decrease it’s budget as well?
    In 2016 there were 912,000 buck tags sold with the general license, only 149,000 were used. That is just over 16% of the total available tags, I don't see how selling an additional 10,000 would be a problem from a management stand point when realistically less than half of them would be used. Even if all of them were utilized that 10,000 is simply the overal difference between years, from 2013 to 2016 the buck harvests were 133k, 119k, 134k, 149k. So from a management perspective the impact would be rather limited.

    As for budget I'm not sure what all their operating costs are but the license price is the same as the 90's yet they have lost a third of their budget, even if they downsize you reach a point where you simply can't trim the fat any more.

  3. #73
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    A spot, Pennsylvania
    (Bucks County)
    Posts
    135
    Rep Power
    4699795

    Default Re: Proposed Second Buck Tag: Admitted Money Grab

    Quote Originally Posted by KCJones View Post
    Yup.
    Well damn I was hoping to avoid that label.

    To clarify, my rifle is a 1941 Model 70 with an old red field scope and I wear my dad's old jacket and grandfathers hat. I gutted the deer with the same knife my dad gave me the year I started hunting and used it to quarter the deer before butchering the meat and taking only the head and cape over to the taxidermist.

    We typically just cut the skull but decided to get the heads mounted because my dad, brother and I all got 8pt bucks on opening day for the very first time. Two of which were the biggest we had taken on the property in the 30+ years we hunted there. It was my first buck in 6 years and my dad's first in 13 years. It's going in the office because the man cave has to many cabinets of reloading stuff blocking the walls.

    So while I'm from the philly burbs that's about all I got in common with the people in your post.

  4. #74
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    York, Pennsylvania
    (York County)
    Posts
    1,411
    Rep Power
    21474845

    Default Re: Proposed Second Buck Tag: Admitted Money Grab

    Quote Originally Posted by CMP703006 View Post
    Well damn I was hoping to avoid that label.

    To clarify, my rifle is a 1941 Model 70 with an old red field scope and I wear my dad's old jacket and grandfathers hat. I gutted the deer with the same knife my dad gave me the year I started hunting and used it to quarter the deer before butchering the meat and taking only the head and cape over to the taxidermist.

    We typically just cut the skull but decided to get the heads mounted because my dad, brother and I all got 8pt bucks on opening day for the very first time. Two of which were the biggest we had taken on the property in the 30+ years we hunted there. It was my first buck in 6 years and my dad's first in 13 years. It's going in the office because the man cave has to many cabinets of reloading stuff blocking the walls.

    So while I'm from the philly burbs that's about all I got in common with the people in your post.
    Well you didn't give me much to go on...

    Had you originally mentioned the butchering of the meat, the 30 years hunting the same property etc. I'd not have said "yup"

    Point is I'm not out to 'categorize' folks. But I hope you recognize there -is- a category of "gentry hunter" who climbs into his luxury SUV, grabs his expensive gun and pristine clothes and comes out here to the 'hinterlands' just for an 'experience' resulting in a trophy. Such people aren't 'bad' per se, but it's a different thing than a dedicated hunter.
    DGAF

  5. #75
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Lake Effect, Pennsylvania
    (Crawford County)
    Posts
    206
    Rep Power
    3181883

    Default Re: Proposed Second Buck Tag: Admitted Money Grab

    Quote Originally Posted by CMP703006 View Post
    In 2016 there were 912,000 buck tags sold with the general license, only 149,000 were used. That is just over 16% of the total available tags, I don't see how selling an additional 10,000 would be a problem from a management stand point when realistically less than half of them would be used. Even if all of them were utilized that 10,000 is simply the overal difference between years, from 2013 to 2016 the buck harvests were 133k, 119k, 134k, 149k. So from a management perspective the impact would be rather limited.

    As for budget I'm not sure what all their operating costs are but the license price is the same as the 90's yet they have lost a third of their budget, even if they downsize you reach a point where you simply can't trim the fat any more.
    My opinion of the accuracy of the harvest report has been supported by my anecdotal experience afield. It is under reported. Those who process their own deer often don’t report their harvest, those who take illegal deer (and the Game Commission grossly under estimates this) ditto, the deer that are wasted afield (lplenty this year with no tracking snow) also not counted. The simple fact is the Game Commission must make an “educated” guess about the harvest. If they are as under staffed as the latest annual report bemoans....that casts further doubt. Deer roadkill’s are also grossly underestimated.

    As is, the Commission does not have the authority to increase hunting and furtaking license fees. There was legislation offered to allow this but it languished without action and expired. I expect that a significant increase will occur if not this year, next and it will very nearly double every single permit cost and expand fees. I am not against small incremental license fee increases but the current situation in the legislature historically works against this. Perhaps a reorganization of funding should be addressed but until these fixes occur, the Game Commission will lose credibility with the public further and the status of the Commonwealths wildlife will suffer.

    The solution lies with the House Game and Fisheries Committee and the General Assembly not with brainstorming by appointed regional commissioners who aren’t trained resource managers or compensated by the Commission.

  6. #76
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    A spot, Pennsylvania
    (Bucks County)
    Posts
    135
    Rep Power
    4699795

    Default Re: Proposed Second Buck Tag: Admitted Money Grab

    Quote Originally Posted by KCJones View Post
    Well you didn't give me much to go on...

    Had you originally mentioned the butchering of the meat, the 30 years hunting the same property etc. I'd not have said "yup"

    Point is I'm not out to 'categorize' folks. But I hope you recognize there -is- a category of "gentry hunter" who climbs into his luxury SUV, grabs his expensive gun and pristine clothes and comes out here to the 'hinterlands' just for an 'experience' resulting in a trophy. Such people aren't 'bad' per se, but it's a different thing than a dedicated hunter.
    I know I was vague on purpose to see what kind of response I would get. I was hoping for something about cars you can't even put a deer in and only going 10ft into the woods so they don't get muddy or scratch the gun. Also on the car note my dad was hunting years ago and shot a deer that ran down and died next to the road. 10 min later two guys in a brand new Jeep Cherokee are riding down the road, see the deer, stop, throw it onto the roof rack, tuck the hooves in and book it away. My dad wanted to yell at them not to take it but he was laughing so hard he couldn't.

    I have met people in that gentry hunter category though they typically don't make it up to hunt with us more than once if at all. Those types of people are usually self centered which does not fit with our "if one of us gets a deer it's like we all got a deer" group hunting mentality. We all hunt together, drive together and when we butcher all the deer go together and divide up the meat evenly. Some are only in it for themselves and don't care if anyone else gets anything.

    My brother brought a guy up who was all about getting himself a deer and after hearing a couple shots decided to wander off during a drive. He ended up in the middle of the thick stuff with the drivers while the deer ran right past where we put him. In addition to that safety hazard he then complained that we put him in a bad spot as several others in the group got deer. Needless to say he was not invited back.
    Last edited by CMP703006; January 5th, 2018 at 10:47 AM.

  7. #77
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Lake Effect, Pennsylvania
    (Crawford County)
    Posts
    206
    Rep Power
    3181883

    Default Re: Proposed Second Buck Tag: Admitted Money Grab

    Quote Originally Posted by KCJones View Post
    Groucho Marx famously said "I wouldn't join any club that would accept me as a member"

    This is sorta the same. Supply and demand.

    You make unique/interesting experiences free/cheap and then everyone does it. You end up waiting in line 3 hours and getting shuttled through a 'bulk' experience. You experience the 'wonder' of the grand canyon while shuffling along through a line with 27,000 other folks visiting that day. You go the Baltimore Aquarium and can't see the fucking fish because people are 9 deep in front of you. "Democratization" of experiences is overrated.

    We're a capitalistic society. When the supply/demand curve is artificially disrupted, things get outta whack.

    If scuba-diving was made free tomorrow, I'm quite sure Free would soon grow to hate waiting in line to get on the boat, being packed into the boat like sardines, clanking along the dive-site being jostled by the 10,000 others there doing it in cloudy water, then climing back on the crowded boat to sail back to shore and meander through the packed parking lot finding his vehicle to drive home in bumper-to-bumper traffic.

    Personal example (speaking locally): I think the prices at Hershey Park are too low. They should raise them, then raise them again, then raise them some more until I can go there and not have to wait 3 hours to ride a roller-coaster. I'd rather do that once every couple years than go 6x a year and spend all day sweating through lines to ride 3 things. Mind you that's MY preference. I suspect Hershey Entertainment prices to maximize their profit, as well they should.

    My take on buck licenses? Raise/Lower the rate until you sell -just- enough to hit the appropriate kill target for the year. No more no less. If that means only a few bourgeois hotshots from Philly can afford to hunt and the good ole boys are cut out... so be it. If that means deer are breeding like rabbits, overrunning farms and the state is practically giving licenses away, so be it. The market at work.

    Or maybe I'm just a curmudgeon.
    The wildlife in the Commonwealth are not a commodity which can be sold on the open market. They are a resource belonging to all citizens of the Commonwealth whether they are wealthy millionaires or poor. They are entrusted to the Game Commission as managers for the perpetuity of the resource and as a guarantee to all beneficiaries of equal access. Many hunters don’t hunt on their own private land. They rely on public land and the graciousness of private landholders. With one million hunters licensed and afield at any one time, conflicts exist.

    Perhaps, the Commission has been too successful in its management over the years. It has never been easier to have success taking deer, bear and turkey than it is today.

  8. #78
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
    (Allegheny County)
    Posts
    4,003
    Rep Power
    21474850

    Default Re: Proposed Second Buck Tag: Admitted Money Grab

    Quote Originally Posted by KCJones View Post
    You make unique/interesting experiences free/cheap and then everyone does it...."Democratization" of experiences is overrated....We're a capitalistic society. When the supply/demand curve is artificially disrupted, things get outta whack....My take on buck licenses? Raise/Lower the rate until you sell -just- enough to hit the appropriate kill target for the year. No more no less. If that means only a few bourgeois hotshots from Philly can afford to hunt and the good ole boys are cut out... so be it.
    We are in the same club (:

    Quote Originally Posted by KCJones View Post
    If scuba-diving was made free tomorrow, I'm quite sure Free would soon grow to hate waiting in line to get on the boat, being packed into the boat like sardines, clanking along the dive-site being jostled by the 10,000 others there doing it in cloudy water, then climing back on the crowded boat to sail back to shore and meander through the packed parking lot finding his vehicle to drive home in bumper-to-bumper traffic.
    Not a diver, are you? (:

    The experience you describe already exists. Such operations are referred to as "cattle boats". They're not free - and they're not THAT much cheaper than the quality operations. But they do "cater to the masses". The people on these boats tend to be VERY casual divers...as in, make 2 dives/year, maybe...when they're on their cruise ship vacation, or new divers who don't know there are better operations, or simply fuckers that are SO cheap, they're not willing to pay 20% more for an experience that is 500% better. These boats are full of people with shitty to virtually non-existent diving skills, who are likely to rent ALL the gear and are an accident waiting to happen in the water. I would not dive with these operations, even if they offered their services at no charge.

  9. #79
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
    (Allegheny County)
    Posts
    4,003
    Rep Power
    21474850

    Default Re: Proposed Second Buck Tag: Admitted Money Grab

    Quote Originally Posted by CMP703006 View Post
    Those types of people are usually self centered which does not fit with our "if one of us gets a deer it like we all got a deer" group hunting mentality.
    Deer's perspective: If one of you got me, it's the same as all of you got me.

  10. #80
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Northcoast, Pennsylvania
    Posts
    1,817
    Rep Power
    21474854

    Default Re: Proposed Second Buck Tag: Admitted Money Grab

    Let's look at PGC's 2016 budget:
    http://www.pgc.pa.gov/InformationRes...e%20Report.pdf

    $108,306,212 in REVENUE alone.
    $99,456,419 in expenditure (and most of those are a joke...43 mil in habitat management, HA!)

    That's $8,849,793 surplus and the greedy fuckers want more.
    Yet in the mean time they closed the pheasant farms.

Page 8 of 10 FirstFirst ... 45678910 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Gun Grab Scenario: After the Grab
    By coppery in forum Open Carry
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: October 26th, 2012, 11:50 PM
  2. Replies: 0
    Last Post: January 23rd, 2009, 06:26 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •