Black Powder Ballistics

[tsafa]

I updated my webpage with some more extensive testing of conicals in comparison to round ball. I did the testing with the 1858 Remington with 8" barrel. I was very impressed with the ballistics.


Gun Barrel......................... Powder by Volume.........Bullet Weight.......Average Velocity..... Calculated Energy
.44 Remington, 1858 8 inch......28 grain 3F Pyrodex.....143 grain, .457 ball.......876 ft/s.........238 ft/lbs
.44 Remington, 1858 8 inch......28 grain 3F Pyrodex.....215 grain conical..........820 ft/s.........321 ft/lbs
.44 Remington, 1858 8 inch......35 grain 3F Pyrodex.....143 grain, .457 ball.......940 ft/s.........280 ft/lbs
.44 Remington, 1858 8 inch......35 grain 3F Pyrodex.....215 grain conical..........870 ft/s.........361 ft/lbs
.44 Remington, 1858 8 inch......40 grain 3F Pyrodex.....143 grain, .457 ball......1052 ft/s.........351 ft/lbs
.44 Remington, 1858 8 inch......40 grain 3F Pyrodex.....215 grain conical..........893 ft/s.........380 ft/lbs
.44 Remington, 1858 8 inch......45 grain 3F Pyrodex.....143 grain, .457 ball ......1081 ft/s........371 ft/lbs
.44 Remington, 1858 8 inch......45 grain 3F Pyrodex.....190 grain conical..........1023 ft/s........441 ft/lbs
.44 Remington, 1858 8 inch......50 grain 3F Pyrodex.....143 grain, .457 ball.......1207 ft/s........462 ft/lbs

More detail at the following webpage:
http://poconoshooting.com/blackpowderballistics.html

[f14tcat691]

(Velocity x Velocity x Mass in grains) / (450240) = Energy
That's interesting. I wonder where the 450240 comes from. I under stand that it's E=MC^2. Is it a conversion factor? You have fps^2grains and end up in ft lbs. Given 1 lb = 7000 gr, that gives you 64.32 fps^2 on the bottom. That's the acceleration of gravity at 2 seconds. Thus your data is only accurate at exactly 2 seconds after leaving the barrel. I wonder if you can rewrite the equation so as to give you a parabolic curve of the energy if graphed.
Velocity for a bullet is broken down into a horizontal and vertical component. The horizontal remaining the same and the vertical increasing at a constant 32.16 fps^2. Meaning bullet technically only accelerates the more time is increased. However, we measure it as a horizontal component only in which the bullet technically takes a longer time to travel the same distance due to the increase in downward vertical velocity without a change in true horizontal velocity.

I was supposed to be asleep 3 hours ago so I could leave for fishing. But I made the mistake of checking PAFOA before turning in. This is why you should never try math when you're dead tired and half asleep.

Well now that I've thoroughly mind-f***** myself, I'm going to bed. I may have to scan my scribble sheet and post it on here. Curse my mathmatical and physics curiosity!

[tsafa]

(Velocity x Velocity x Mass in grains) / (450240) = Energy
That's interesting. I wonder where the 450240 comes from. I under stand that it's E=MC^2. Is it a conversion factor? You have fps^2grains and end up in ft lbs. Given 1 lb = 7000 gr, that gives you 64.32 fps^2 on the bottom. That's the acceleration of gravity at 2 seconds. Thus your data is only accurate at exactly 2 seconds after leaving the barrel. I wonder if you can rewrite the equation so as to give you a parabolic curve of the energy if graphed.
Velocity for a bullet is broken down into a horizontal and vertical component. The horizontal remaining the same and the vertical increasing at a constant 32.16 fps^2. Meaning bullet technically only accelerates the more time is increased. However, we measure it as a horizontal component only in which the bullet technically takes a longer time to travel the same distance due to the increase in downward vertical velocity without a change in true horizontal velocity.

f14tcat691, sorry I kept you up half the night... but I was hoping to gain feedback from someone exactly like yourself

I have been running some of the numbers through the following simulator which you should try out for fun and see how close they are to your manual calculations:

http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_...allistics.html

The simulator shows 215 conical over 35 grains of pyrodex will have a muzzle energy of 361 ft/lbs and will travel:
-20 yards in .07 seconds, 337 ft/lbs energy, zero drop
-100 yards in .37 seconds, 255 ft/lbs energy, 20 inch drop
-200 yards in .87 seconds, 175 ft/lbs energy, 118 inch drop
-300 yards in 1.37 seconds, 117 ft/lbs energy, 343 inch drop
-400 yards in 2 seconds, 75 ft/lbs energy, 745 inch drop

The numbers made me realize that in the context of shooting, 2 seconds is a really long time.

I have also contemplated the meaning of the 450,240 number in the equation. This is the standard equation that is used for muzzle energy. I am guessing that it has no other purpose other then to balance the measurement units of grains and ft/s into something we can relate to like ft/lbs. I am guessing that they backed into that 450,240 number at some point. The formula could have just as well used miles per hour and pounds, then used some other denominator to create a meaningful ft/lb energy result.

The most important part of the equation is Velocity x Velocity x Mass. It made me realize how a faster bullet is more effective then a heavier bullet (if you can get the speed). Since the velocity is Squared... increases in velocity outpace increases in mass. This is not something I fully understood until I did these computations. In the case of black powder, the mass seems to be very significant, because there is a limit to how much powder you can fit in a chamber and how much burns before the bullet exits the barrel.

I look forward to additional feedback from you when you are fully rested.

[knight0334]

f14tcat691, sorry I kept you up half the night... but I was hoping to gain feedback from someone exactly like yourself

I have been running some of the numbers through the following simulator which you should try out for fun:

http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_...allistics.html

The simulator shows 215 conical over 35 grains of pyrodex will have a muzzle energy of 361 ft/lbs and will travel:
-20 yards in .07 seconds, 337 ft/lbs energy, zero drop
-100 yards in .37 seconds, 255 ft/lbs energy, 20 inch drop
-200 yards in .87 seconds, 175 ft/lbs energy, 118 inch drop
-300 yards in 1.37 seconds, 117 ft/lbs energy, 343 inch drop
-400 yards in 2 seconds, 75 ft/lbs energy, 745 inch drop

The numbers made me realize that in the context of shooting, 2 seconds is a really long time.

I have also contemplated the meaning of the 450,240 number in the equation. I am guessing that it has no other purpose other then to balance the measurement units of grains and ft/s second. I am guessing that they backed into that 450,240 number at some point. The formula could have just as well used miles per hour and pounds, then used some other denominator to create a meaningful product that we can relate to like ft/lbs.

The most important part of the equation is Velocity x Velocity x Mass. It made me realize how a faster bullet is more effective then a heavier bullet (if you can get the speed) since the velocity is Squared. The velocity outpaces the mass. This is not something I fully understood until I did these computations.

Yep. Every time you double the velocity, you quadruple the energy. When you double the mass, you double the kinetic energy.

However, when you double the velocity, you only double the momentum.

[LisaA]

Excellent information, all. I have both muzzleloading rifles and revolvers.

[tsafa]

Yep. Every time you double the velocity, you quadruple the energy. When you double the mass, you double the kinetic energy.

However, when you double the velocity, you only double the momentum.

knight0334 ,you raise an important question in my mind regarding Momentum vs Energy.

I understand how each one is calculated. What I would like to know with more certainty is which matters more to the target being hit??? I suspect it is Energy since it is what is used by ballistics experts.

LisaA, I am happy to see that my work is useful to you. It has taken a lot of time to put all the data together, test and retest. It has been fun too.

[knight0334]

knight0334 ,you raise an important question in my mind regarding Momentum vs Energy.

I understand how each one is calculated. What I would like to know with more certainty is which matters more to the target being hit??? I suspect it is Energy since it is what is used by ballistics experts.

LisaA, I am happy to see that my work is useful to you. It has taken a lot of time to put all the data together, test and retest. It has been fun too.

Both matter greatly. Momentum is desired for greater penetration. Sure, greater kinetic energy will provide penetration too. I'm not versed well enough to explain both in a competitive means. You could relate kinetic energy to horsepower, and momentum to torque.

I do know that if you increase the mass of the object but it's still doing the slower velocity of a lighter mass bullet, it will penetrate further - due to the momentum.

A comparison: a 150gr bullet from a .30-06 at about 2900fps versus a 550gr bullet from a blackpowder 45-70 doing about 1500fps. The .45-70 will out penetrate the 30-06 quite easily, even though it has 53ftlbs less energy. All because it has nearly twice the momentum.

[tsafa]

Thanks for reminding me about that KO calculator at Handloads.org
I had forgotten about it and I am now interested in running some of my data through it.
I was particularly interested in comparing the .36 cal to the 44 cal at the point where the energy is equal.

load.jpg

[knight0334]

Thanks for reminding me about that KO calculator at Handloads.org
I had forgotten about it and I am now interested in running some of my data through it.
I was particularly interested in comparing the .36 cal to the 44 cal at the point where the energy is equal.

load.jpg

See how the energy is the same, but the momentum is to the 44cal's advantage? Guess which on is more likely to penetrate further..

[tsafa]

See how the energy is the same, but the momentum is to the 44cal's advantage? Guess which on is more likely to penetrate further..

Normally I would think the .36 would penetrate deeper because it has less surface area... but the Taylor KO formula seems to take that into account and indicates that the .44 has enough mass to overcome that and still yield a better result.