Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #81
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
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    Green Lane, Pennsylvania
    (Montgomery County)
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    Default Re: AR-15 stripped lower MUST be registered as a handgun - Legal issues?

    The bottom line is that the whole code SS 33.102 is written poorly and a group of junior high school kids could have drafted a better, more clearly written set of rules and regs. So the question is… is the law written to be vague so that it allows considerable latitude for DAs to prosecute cases or is it written vague simply because it came from a lousy bureaucracy that is in incapable of drafting a set of rules and laws that don't contradict themselves?

    If members are going to contact their reps they should encourage them to read this Pa code and also encourage them to push to have it re-written with a civilian/ industry oversight committee to make sure that the technical elements and verbiage do not contradict.

  2. #82
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
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    State College, Pennsylvania
    (Centre County)
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    Default Re: AR-15 stripped lower MUST be registered as a handgun - Legal issues?

    Yes, the code is very poorly written. It should have said something to the effect "receivers that were designed primarily to made into a handgun" (sorry, I'm bad with the legalese). The AR receiver was not designed to be a handgun, but in recent times people started removing buttstocks and putting handgrips on everything. Heck, you can take any virgin bolt action rifle receiver, put a short barrel on it and manufacture a pistol grip for it and when assembled it then becomes a pistol, but the original design of the receiver was for building a rifle. Under PSP interpretation, every virgin rifle receiver that benchrest shooters or custom rifle builders buy would be classed the same as a handgun. This interpretation is getting into the realm of absurdity.
    Ron USAF Ret E-8 FFL01/SOT3 NRA Benefactor Member

  3. #83
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    May 2008
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    Bellwood (Tyrone), Pennsylvania
    (Blair County)
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    Default Re: AR-15 stripped lower MUST be registered as a handgun - Legal issues?

    I am not in my shop right now so I don't have a PA record of sale, but last night my brother pointed out the the record of sale must be executed "if the firearm is less than 24 inches long". Now the 4473, in note 18, clearly defines "recievers and frames as "firearms". Using this logic ANY receiver, including a Mauser action (remember the XP-100) would require the PA record of sale to be executed.

    Steve

  4. #84
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Rural Countryside of York, Pennsylvania
    (York County)
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    Default Re: AR-15 stripped lower MUST be registered as a handgun - Legal issues?

    That's exactly what I said a few days ago (post #55).

    According to this logic, ALL receivers regardless of their originally designed intent are/require a Handgun form.
    Wouldn't you like to know what's in my safe.

  5. #85
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    somewhere, Pennsylvania
    (Montgomery County)
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    Default Re: AR-15 stripped lower MUST be registered as a handgun - Legal issues?

    Okay, i've been following this thread for a bit now.

    Here are my questions for you FFL's:

    If we buy a lower from you (dealer) that gets the handgun form filled out---do i need to sell the completed rifle through an ffl if i decide to sell it later?

    Is the transferring FFL going to know to do a handgun transfer to the new buyer?

    If not, how do I and the lower ever get removed from the non existing database as the owner?

    I'm just trying to cover my ass too. I don't want to sell a completed rifle i built from a lower that got filed as a handgun and then get busted for selling a handgun in a FTF transaction even though i built it into a rifle.

    I was thinking about buying another lower or two---but not if i need to jump through hoops with this pistol paperwork.

  6. #86
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Polk, Pennsylvania
    (Venango County)
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    Default Re: AR-15 stripped lower MUST be registered as a handgun - Legal issues?

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveWag View Post
    I am not in my shop right now so I don't have a PA record of sale, but last night my brother pointed out the the record of sale must be executed "if the firearm is less than 24 inches long". Now the 4473, in note 18, clearly defines "recievers and frames as "firearms". Using this logic ANY receiver, including a Mauser action (remember the XP-100) would require the PA record of sale to be executed.

    Steve
    Exactly what I was saying way back in post #27, and got brushed away.

  7. #87
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Tannersville, Pennsylvania
    (Monroe County)
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    Default Re: AR-15 stripped lower MUST be registered as a handgun - Legal issues?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guns4Fun View Post
    Okay, i've been following this thread for a bit now.

    Here are my questions for you FFL's:

    If we buy a lower from you (dealer) that gets the handgun form filled out---do i need to sell the completed rifle through an ffl if i decide to sell it later?

    Is the transferring FFL going to know to do a handgun transfer to the new buyer?

    If not, how do I and the lower ever get removed from the non existing database as the owner?

    I'm just trying to cover my ass too. I don't want to sell a completed rifle i built from a lower that got filed as a handgun and then get busted for selling a handgun in a FTF transaction even though i built it into a rifle.

    I was thinking about buying another lower or two---but not if i need to jump through hoops with this pistol paperwork.

    You could in reality open several cans of worms on this one.

    1. YES to stay within the current line of PSPFD thinking, you should/would have to do an FFL transfer if you ever wish to get the firearm out of your name.

    2. And this is the BIG one. When you sell a firearm that you built from a completed receiver. That firearm has never had the FET paid on it that would have been paid if it was built by an 07 FFL holder If you are buying stripped receivers and building firearms out of them and then reselling said completed firearm as a completed firearm. You "could" be wacked several different ways, one of which is tax evation (sp) I ALWAYS wondered about that one because as an individual you can build one firearm a year for personal use BUT you aren't suppose to sell that firearm until/unless the firearm has had the FET paid on it by a licensed 07. It is no different than the 01 FFL holders that think it's ok to buy a complete lower receiver from RRA and then buy a complete upper receiver from joe blows custom uppers and then put both together and sell it as a complete firearm. More than 1 FFL has got his peepee in a bind for doing that. The FET is paid on the retail resale value of the COMPLETED firearm and not the individual parts.

    Thats JMHO ofcourse,
    Rich W.
    Last edited by Warners Surplus; April 2nd, 2009 at 01:18 PM.

  8. #88
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Johnstown, Pennsylvania
    (Cambria County)
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    Default Re: AR-15 stripped lower MUST be registered as a handgun - Legal issues?

    Quote Originally Posted by Warners Surplus View Post
    You could in reality open several cans of worms on this one.

    as an individual you can build one firearm a year for personal use BUT you aren't suppose to sell that firearm until/unless the firearm has had the FET paid on it by a licensed 07.
    Not being a smartass but could you direct me to this law !
    DAN

  9. #89
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
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    Tannersville, Pennsylvania
    (Monroe County)
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    Default Re: AR-15 stripped lower MUST be registered as a handgun - Legal issues?

    Quote Originally Posted by notenoughguns View Post
    Not being a smartass but could you direct me to this law !

    no problem and no I don't think your a smartass.

    remember there are over 22,000 laws out there so it can get ugly.

    here is a PDF from the FAQ's page of the ATF site. take note of the "imported" parts list. I wonder how many people are building AR's using UTG (made in china) parts.


    http://www.atf.gov/firearms/building_a_firearm.pdf

    I'll do some more digging after dinner, We went thru this years ago with Browning 1919's and the number that were showing up at gunshows without manufacturer marks or even serial numbers.


    Rich W.

  10. #90
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Johnstown, Pennsylvania
    (Cambria County)
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    Default Re: AR-15 stripped lower MUST be registered as a handgun - Legal issues?

    Quote Originally Posted by Warners Surplus View Post
    no problem and no I don't think your a smartass.

    remember there are over 22,000 laws out there so it can get ugly.

    here is a PDF from the FAQ's page of the ATF site. take note of the "imported" parts list. I wonder how many people are building AR's using UTG (made in china) parts.


    http://www.atf.gov/firearms/building_a_firearm.pdf

    I'll do some more digging after dinner, We went thru this years ago with Browning 1919's and the number that were showing up at gunshows without manufacturer marks or even serial numbers.


    Rich W.
    I 'm more interested in your 1 per year statement , I'm aware of the compliant parts regs .
    DAN

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