Illegal roadblock from getting my LTCF?

[BimmerJon]

Alright guys, thanks for the quick info. Taking my application, along with a copy of section 6109, and a bit of education, straight to the courthouse. Hoping I don't look foolish, but I don't really care at this point. Expect an update within a few hours.

GL man.... I know it's frustrating, intimating and seems hopeless.
I went through it in my county, but I know your county is 100's harder.

You have a lot of people behind you. It's tough to fight for what's right., I give you credit.

Don't ask them questions like, "why is this required" or "why do I have to do it". You already KNOW what is legally required and what is not. You don't have to ask them or explain anything.

Make statements, talk little and stand your ground.

"Hi I'm here to drop off my LTCF application. Here is the application, my ID and here is 20 bucks", please let me know the results in 45 days.

If they ask for anything outside the law, just say "No Thanks, that is not required by law".

Be polite and AND SMILE! (but not too hard). You don't have to lecture them or educate them on the law. They should know it.

If they refuse to accept the application, get the full name of the clerk that refused to take it and report back. I'd even leave the application on the counter and walk away. That way "you dropped it off" and they can't say "Well... he walked out without leaving his application."

[StealthBeast]

Just got back. Headed to the office, handed them the form, my ID, and a 20 dollar bill. Having seen me earlier and personally given me the local police check card, they asked what I did with it. I kindly explained that I didn't need it. They said that I do. I said not according to state law. Suddenly there was a long silence before one of the guys behind the person I was speaking with said with careful wording that it will speed up processing for me, at which point I said, it will still need to be processed within- at which point he and I said simultaneously, "45 days". The previous gentleman I was speaking with directly then asked me for a number to be called at, took my form, copied my ID, and then handed me back the 20. He wouldn't take the 20 when I tried to hand it back to him. The guy behind him now said they will call me back in 45 days. With little else I could do, and with them closing in less than half an hour, I left.

So yes, it's clear that this illegal little operation is thoroughly known to each and every single one of these guys and that they actively try to make efforts to pull the wool over people's eyes. That's disturbing... Like... really disturbing. Like, the definition of corruption sort of disturbing.

Call me paranoid, but I suspect refusing to take my 20 dollars is a clever way of ensuring that I'll get a call in 44.9 days claiming I refused to pay the 20 dollar background check fee.

[BimmerJon]

I forget but they might not take the 20 until you get your answer? I forget to be honest.

Did you give the police 25 bucks as well?
Nice little arrangement and racket they got running. Basically the Sheriff and police chief are running an illegal racket to steal money from citizens.

I wonder how many millions that has put in their pockets over the years?

Sickening

You did good my friend!!!!


PA is SHALL ISSUE. If you get denied, I'd be very surprised.

Keep in touch

[StealthBeast]

I forget but they might not take the 20 until you get your answer? I forget to be honest.

Did you give the police 25 bucks as well?
Nice little arrangement and racket they got running. Basically the Sheriff and police chief are running an illegal racket to steal money from citizens.

I wonder how many millions that has put in their pockets over the years?

Sickening

You did good my friend!!!!


PA is SHALL ISSUE. If you get denied, I'd be very surprised.

Keep in touch

Indeed. I thank you and everyone else for the support.

Including those frustrated enough at situation that they demonstrated that frustration in posts towards me. I know, I'm sick of this nonsense too folks, but nobody wants to do anything about it. That's why I'm here, especially as this isn't the first time I tried to get my LTCF and failed due to this specific roadblock.

Nothing I can do right now but wait and plan.

What should I do in 46 days when they say no?

[GunLawyer001]

There is no legal sense in which something can be a mandatory part of your application, without it being part of your application. That sounds like one of those useless sentences, but it's what some counties are trying to do by adding pages or fees or hoops to the process.

The process is required to be uniform, the application is provided by the state. Any deviation from that is unlawful and illegal.

Philadelphia (last time I checked) was using the State Police form, but also had another page or two. They considered every page of that to be "the application", in the sense that lying on that was "lying on the application".

The issuing authority is required to do an investigation. You have to enable that investigation, in reasonable good faith. But that can be stretched too far, and that's one of the perceived loopholes that the anti-gun regimes use, in addition to the "character/reputation" clause. You can't be required to pay for the state-mandated investigation, you can't be required to divulge medical information or waive your privacy rights or include your last 7 tax returns or provide a DNA sample (although you may be tempted to voluntarily provide a stool sample, I wouldn't.)

It's unfortunate that the cost of contesting these encroachments exceeds the burden of rolling over and complying. You can't appeal a denial for anything near $25, so the vast majority of applicants just grit their teeth and pay the extra for the license, telling themselves "well, at least we don't live across the Delaware in Mafialand."

[StealthBeast]

There is no legal sense in which something can be a mandatory part of your application, without it being part of your application. That sounds like one of those useless sentences, but it's what some counties are trying to do by adding pages or fees or hoops to the process.

The process is required to be uniform, the application is provided by the state. Any deviation from that is unlawful and illegal.

Philadelphia (last time I checked) was using the State Police form, but also had another page or two. They considered every page of that to be "the application", in the sense that lying on that was "lying on the application".

The issuing authority is required to do an investigation. You have to enable that investigation, in reasonable good faith. But that can be stretched too far, and that's one of the perceived loopholes that the anti-gun regimes use, in addition to the "character/reputation" clause. You can't be required to pay for the state-mandated investigation, you can't be required to divulge medical information or waive your privacy rights or include your last 7 tax returns or provide a DNA sample (although you may be tempted to voluntarily provide a stool sample, I wouldn't.)

It's unfortunate that the cost of contesting these encroachments exceeds the burden of rolling over and complying. You can't appeal a denial for anything near $25, so the vast majority of applicants just grit their teeth and pay the extra for the license, telling themselves "well, at least we don't live across the Delaware in Mafialand."

I thought something like that.

So the implication I'm getting from you and from the legislation is that they will have to issue it to me, or they will have to write me a formal letter of denial, and why I was denied (which wont work, as there is no acceptable reason in accordance with "d" of the relevant legislation)

I know you're not to be taken in place of legal advice, but off-hand:

In 44.9 days when they call me and tell me I've been denied because I didn't pay 19 dollars or something, and I'm left with no proof that they literally just refused to take the money, is there anything legally sticky about me going in next time and recording the process of them cleverly (and illegally) swindling me out of my rights?

If you'd feel more comfortable not to answer this, I understand.

[GunLawyer001]

I thought something like that.

So the implication I'm getting from you and from the legislation is that they will have to issue it to me, or they will have to write me a formal letter of denial, and why I was denied (which wont work, as there is no acceptable reason in accordance with "d" of the relevant legislation)

I know you're not to be taken in place of legal advice, but off-hand:

In 44.9 days when they call me and tell me I've been denied because I didn't pay 19 dollars or something, and I'm left with no proof that they literally just refused to take the money, is there anything legally sticky about me going in next time and recording the process of them cleverly (and illegally) swindling me out of my rights?

If you'd feel more comfortable not to answer this, I understand.

Recording is a separate issue, open recording isn't a violation of the wiretap statute, concealed recording inside their office might be. If you're denied, then you have to formally appeal within 30 days via pleadings in Common Pleas Court.

Me, I'd consider mailing them a check for the statutory amount (make a photocopy of it before mailing), and send it certified mail. Then if they claim the denial is for refusal to pay the fee, you have evidence that you proffered payment and they refused.

[Ewussor]

is there anything legally sticky about me going in next time and recording the process of them cleverly (and illegally) swindling me out of my rights?

Taking a witness or two with you might be safer than trying to record. I'm confident if it comes down to this, that you'll be able to find some people here who would be willing to accompany you and act in that capacity.

[HiredGoon]

I would not have given them cash (it seems like that's what you did). Use something traceable like a check or money order or even a bank check, but not cash

[StealthBeast]

Recording is a separate issue, open recording isn't a violation of the wiretap statute, concealed recording inside their office might be. If you're denied, then you have to formally appeal within 30 days via pleadings in Common Pleas Court.

Hmm... if the recording could create a sticky issue at ALL, I suppose it's contraindicated. I'm not interested in risking breaking any laws here.

Me, I'd consider mailing them a check for the statutory amount (make a photocopy of it before mailing), and send it certified mail. Then if they claim the denial is for refusal to pay the fee, you have evidence that you proffered payment and they refused.

Hmm.. I'll do that tomorrow morning.

Taking a witness or two with you might be safer than trying to record. I'm confident if it comes down to this, that you'll be able to find some people here who would be willing to accompany you and act in that capacity.

That sounds much more sensible.

I simply assumed no one would care, as I've been following this stupid conundrum in montco for years and everybody knows there's a problem yet no one's willing to do anything about it. Assumably because everyone who cares needs a license for carry and can't be screwing around with legislation.