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August 3rd, 2012, 07:23 PM #11
Re: US Senate does NOT have to vote on the UN Gun treaty
Vienna, Geneva - it all European to me
Hold the Line...
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August 3rd, 2012, 07:33 PM #12Active Member
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August 3rd, 2012, 07:34 PM #13
Re: US Senate does NOT have to vote on the UN Gun treaty
Preliminary research reveals that the US is a signatory to the Vienna Treaty (the so-called Treaty of Treaties) but the treaty was never ratified by the Senate.
Still unclear as to the legality and force of law of a treaty that the US has signed but not ratified. This seems to be the key question.
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August 3rd, 2012, 07:40 PM #14
Re: US Senate does NOT have to vote on the UN Gun treaty
If it was not ratified by the senate, then we are not signatories.
All treaties have to be done within the system of government of the parties in agreement.
A king may sign, and that is that.
There is no need for anything else.
We have no king, and our diplomats have no power.
If the senate didn't ratify the treaty then we are simply not signatories.
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August 3rd, 2012, 07:48 PM #15
Re: US Senate does NOT have to vote on the UN Gun treaty
There is no Constitution, and the government works however it wants.
5 years later it goes to the Supreme Court. And they say:
"We won't interfere with how Executive and Legislative branches conduct their business. It is up to them whether or not they feel their procedures are appropriate, and we will never rule on their procedures. We will rule on the constitutionality of laws passed, but we don't believe in the constitution so that's basically a popularity contest around these halls."
Where have you been?
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August 3rd, 2012, 07:58 PM #16
Re: US Senate does NOT have to vote on the UN Gun treaty
I'm not sure if Morris is correct and have a lot of doubts about his assertions. A. He keeps stating that the Senate has to ratify the treaty. Based on everything I've read over the last couple of months, the Senate does not ever ratify a treaty, The treaty has to be presented to them and they go through an advice and consent process. At the end of the process the Senate either consents to the treaty or does not. If they consent to it with a 2/3rds vote, the President then ratifies the treaty. In that video he keeps using the word ratify which might not seem like a big deal, but you would think he would use the correct terminology.
Also I have read in a couple of places that the President can only ratify a treaty after it goes through the advice and consent process. There have been hot button issues in the past where the president really wanted something, but had to back down when the Senate said they would not consent to the treaty.
We signed the Kyoto treaty, which meant that we would commit to looking into it. Signing is not enforceable, It must be ratified to become the law and be enforced. Signing basically says that we will spend time looking into the treaty an gives countries a chance to discuss and debate if they really want the treaty or not. Clinton really wanted to ratify the Kyoto treaty, but had to back down when Senators said they would not consent to it.
Once the treaty is ratified then the federal courts start to enforce the treaty and make American adhere to it. If it has not been ratified then the Federal Courts can not enforce the treaty.
Here are a couple of links that I have gotten some of my information from. I'm can't say for sure that Morris is wrong, but I've read enough that I have my doubts and think that he is placing to much emphasis on the signing. I will do further research because I would like to know more.
Here are links that explains the difference between signing and ratifying a treaty.
http://suite101.com/article/the-diff...treaty-a287524
http://www.institut-fuer-menschenrec...ification.html
How the U.S ratifies a treaty:
http://www.ehow.com/how_5110577_ratify-treaty.html
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratification
http://www.childrightscampaign.org/w...atify-treatiesLast edited by internet troll; August 3rd, 2012 at 08:01 PM.
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August 3rd, 2012, 08:01 PM #17
Re: US Senate does NOT have to vote on the UN Gun treaty
According to the OP, Morris is postulating a scenario wherein the treaty could effectively usurp our Constitution without Senate ratification. Just trying to validate or invalidate Morris' position. I believe he bases his position on tenets of the Vienna Treaty (which we actually never ratified). Are we, in fact, compliant with the Vienna treaty despite the lack of ratification? If so, this would form the basis for Morris' argument
Would like someone versed in international law to weigh-in
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August 3rd, 2012, 08:31 PM #18
Re: US Senate does NOT have to vote on the UN Gun treaty
In that case, senators do not have to vote to ratify or not ratify and given Reid's past history, he would let it fester in committee for four years (or at least two) while the treaty could legally (according to international law) be enforced by the UN.
Hah, good luck with that.Any mission, any conditions, any foe at any range.
Twice the mayhem, triple the force.
Ten times the action, total hardcore.
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August 3rd, 2012, 08:33 PM #19
Re: US Senate does NOT have to vote on the UN Gun treaty
double post
Any mission, any conditions, any foe at any range.
Twice the mayhem, triple the force.
Ten times the action, total hardcore.
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August 3rd, 2012, 10:55 PM #20
Re: US Senate does NOT have to vote on the UN Gun treaty
This according to the State Department website
Is the United States a party to the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties?
No. The United States signed the treaty on April 24, 1970. The U.S. Senate has not given its advice and consent to the treaty. The United States considers many of the provisions of the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties to constitute customary international law on the law of treaties.
However, Hillary Clinton and Obama are sure to interpret it as binding and he has never worried about constitutionality before.
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