18 Year old Carry Questions...

[ByblosHex]

It's not a gift if someone gives you money to buy something, so the origin of the money is very important.

There is no such law as a Straw purchase. The illegal activity is not answering question 12A honestly. If you are buying a firearm with the intention to gift it to someone, that is legal. If you are buying a firearm for someone else, you are not the true buyer according to the question.

Basically, unless the FFL can mind read, question 12A is stupid.

What question is that?

Buying it to gift it to a sibling is legal.

[BimmerJon]

What question is that?

Buying it to gift it to a sibling is legal.

Buying it to gift to anyone is legal. Buying it on behalf (for them) is not.
I guess money exchanging is the identifier.

So if my 18 year old son wants a gun, gives me 500 to buy it and I do, I'm breaking the law.

If my 18 year old son wants a gun and I go buy one and give it to him, I'm not...

Lol

12A on the 4473 form

Are you the actual buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form? Warning: You are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring
the firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual buyer, the dealer cannot transfer the firearm(s) to
you. (See Important Notice 1 for actual buyer definition and examples.)

1. For purposes of this form, you are the actual buyer if you are purchasing the
firearm for yourself or otherwise acquiring the firearm for yourself (for example,
redeeming the firearm from pawn/retrieving it from consignment). You are also the
actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm as a legitimate gift for a third party.
ACTUAL BUYER EXAMPLES: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for
Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. Mr. Jones is NOT
the actual buyer of the firearm and must answer “no “ to question 12a. The
licensee may not transfer the firearm to Mr. Jones. However, if Mr. Brown goes to
buy a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Black as a present, Mr. Brown is
the actual buyer of the firearm and should answer “yes” to question 12a.

[BimmerJon]

Yes they can. What makes you think a parent can't gift a firearm purchased from an FFL? And in PA, how else would they legally obtain a handgun?

Since I got neg rep for my comment below , let me elaborate...

Your parent can gift you a firearm, but they can't buy one from an FFL for you.

You can purchase a firearm in PA and gift it to your son- Legal
You can't purchase a firearm in PA for your son (he gives you money to buy it) - Illegal

In doing so, you are lying on the 4473 question 12a as you are NOT the buyer.

Prove me wrong

Are you the actual buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form? Warning: You are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring
the firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual buyer, the dealer cannot transfer the firearm(s) to
you. (See Important Notice 1 for actual buyer definition and examples.)

1. For purposes of this form, you are the actual buyer if you are purchasing the
firearm for yourself or otherwise acquiring the firearm for yourself (for example,
redeeming the firearm from pawn/retrieving it from consignment). You are also the
actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm as a legitimate gift for a third party.
ACTUAL BUYER EXAMPLES: Mr. Smith (SON) asks Mr. Jones (DAD) to purchase a firearm for
Mr. Smith (SON). Mr. Smith (SON) gives Mr. Jones (DAD) the money for the firearm. Mr. Jones(DAD) is NOT
the actual buyer of the firearm and must answer “no “ to question 12a. The
licensee may not transfer the firearm to Mr. Jones. However, if Mr. Brown goes to
buy a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Black as a present, Mr. Brown is
the actual buyer of the firearm and should answer “yes” to question 12a.

[zackattack784]

Since I got neg rep for my comment below , let me elaborate...



You can purchase a firearm in PA and gift it to your son- Legal
You can't purchase a firearm in PA for your son (he gives you money to buy it) - Illegal

In doing so, you are lying on the 4473 question 12a as you are NOT the buyer.

Prove me wrong

You guys are getting way too hung up on the word "gift."

I don't see the word gift in the statute anywhere, in fact, the word is TRANSFER.

The provisions of this section shall not apply to transfers between spouses or to transfers between a parent and child or to transfers between grandparent and grandchild.

A parent can transfer a firearm to a child. Who says that transfer has to be a gift? Why can't that transfer include cash for the firearm?

ETA: I appear to be wrong about gift not appearing anywhere.

Are you the actual buyer of the firearm(s), as defined under 18 Pa.C.S. § 6102 (relating to definitions), listed on this application/record of sale? Warning: You are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person, unless you are legitimately acquiring the firearm as a gift for any of the following individuals who are legally eligible to own a firearm:
(1) spouse;
(2) parent;
(3) child;
(4) grandparent; or
(5) grandchild.

[zackattack784]

What question is that?

Buying it to gift it to a sibling is legal.

No it's not.

The provisions of this section shall not apply to transfers between spouses or to transfers between a parent and child or to transfers between grandparent and grandchild.

[IronSight]

As far as I know "gift" is not defined anywhere in the applicable statutes; therefore no one can claim they are right or wrong about what it means to "gift" someone a firearm.

I am not a lawyer.

ETA: Hmmm; see next posts ... this is interesting.

[BimmerJon]

As far as I know "gift" is not defined anywhere in the applicable statutes; therefore no one can claim they are right or wrong about what it means to "gift" someone a firearm.

I am not a lawyer.

I think some people are mixing State and Federal law.

My focus was on the Federal law (form 4473), which specifics "gift"
Is "Gift" defined anywhere in Federal law?

[IronSight]

I think some people are mixing State and Federal law.

My focus was on the Federal law (form 4473), which specifics "gift"
Is "Gift" defined anywhere in Federal law?

Now that's a good question ... I have no idea.

This may just be another case of government bureaucracy issuing an opinion over an unspecified term in a way detrimental to ordinary citizens.

[BimmerJon]

Now that's a good question ... I have no idea.

This may just be another case of government bureaucracy issuing an opinion over an unspecified term in a way detrimental to ordinary citizens.

Well, I just spent the last 53 mins searching everywhere... couldn't find a good definition. Found some stuff in regards to Gift Tax and Gift Inheritance, but nothing in regards to 4473.

Just standard Federal definitions

[BimmerJon]

Not that I trust WIKI...

Is this right? I thought there was no Straw Purchase law... and the recipient would not be breaking any law, just the buyer by lying on the 4473

In the United States, straw purchases are a felony violation of the Gun Control Act of 1968 for both the straw purchaser (who can also be charged with lying on Federal Form 4473) and the ultimate possessor. One of the questions on Form 4473 is “I am the buyer of this firearm” and the purchaser must answer honestly yes or no, by checking the appropriate box in ink. However, purchase of a firearm as a bona fide gift for someone who can legally own such a firearm is permitted.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_purchase

Seems the answer is yes. I've heard a lot of people on this forum say the "recipient" is not guilty of a crime, but.....
http://www.atf.gov/publications/down...f-p-5300-4.pdf

15. STRAW PURCHASES
Questions have arisen concerning the
lawfulness of firearms purchases from
licensees by persons who use a "straw
purchaser" (another person) to acquire
the firearms. Specifically, the actual
buyer uses the straw purchaser to execute
the Form 4473 purporting to show
that the straw purchaser is the actual
purchaser of the firearm. In some instances,
a straw purchaser is used because
the actual purchaser is prohibited
from acquiring the firearm. That is to
say, the actual purchaser is a felon or is
within one of the other prohibited categories
of persons who may not lawfully
acquire firearms or is a resident of a
State other than that in which the licensee's
business premises is located.
Because of his or her disability, the person
uses a straw purchaser who is not
prohibited from purchasing a firearm
from the licensee. In other instances,
neither the straw purchaser nor the actual
purchaser is prohibited from acquiring
the firearm.
In both instances, the straw purchaser
violates Federal law by making
false statements on Form 4473 to the
licensee with respect to the identity of
the actual purchaser of the firearm, as
well as the actual purchaser's residence
address and date of birth. The actual
purchaser who utilized the straw purchaser
to acquire a firearm has unlawfully
aided and abetted or caused the
making of the false statements. The
licensee selling the firearm under these
circumstances also violates Federal law
if the licensee is aware of the false
statements on the form. It is immaterial
that the actual purchaser and the straw
purchaser are residents of the State in
which the licensee's business premises
is located, are not prohibited from receiving
or possessing firearms, and
could have lawfully purchased firearms
from the licensee.