Is A .38 Snub Enough? Article By Ayoob, 2000

[dgg9]

Long before FoF was available, allot of folks who only had square range training and very little instruction in shooting on the move prevailed against armed and violent attack.

A lot did and a lot didn't. We're trying to find ways to improve your chances.

Much of what is taught as doctrine was developed from the realities of combat and transferred to the square range so that the techniques could be taught and learned.

That's way too optimistic. In reality, it's a lot more trendy than that. A lot of what comes out of competition, and other sources became MT. A lot of what REALLY worked in a lot of bad areas of the world, such as point shooting, got dismissed and replaced.

IMO, it is very simplistic to assert some kind of straight line from proven, vetted combat tactics and techniques, directly into modern core doctrine.

I'm just not sold on the fact that FoF is the best vehicle to test techniques.

And what exactly is better? When, for example, modern doctrine embraces something sub-optimal, how exactly do we find that out?

IMO, FoF is the best vehicle to test techniques, of the vehicles that exist.

ETA: here's what I know. A lot of what is claimed to work is simply that: claimed. Arguments against it quickly became "can not" ... "can too" with no end in sight. Anyone can claim you can draw into your Weaver stance and shoot the BG down before he can shoot you. Yet do you really want to bet your life on that unsupported claim? The breakthrough of FoF is that, despite limitations, you can refute a lot of dogmatic claims.

[dgg9]

Re: claims that FoF doesn't "prove" things, since the relative skills are different and the players are aware that it's happening:

But this is unconvincing. That's identical to the claim that social sciences in general can't prove anything because of the human factor. Yet social scientists have been aware of all these problems for hundreds of years. For every factor to be controlled, there are many ways to achieve that. There are control groups, proxies, ways to cancel out variations in skill levels, etc.

So the answer is not to simply give up and say nothing can be proven. The answer is to approach FoF testing the way thousands of researchers have approached human studies over the decades.

[synergy]

I can see where the hesitations comes with FoF...

The things is, unless we're willing to go step out on the two-way range....it's about the closest thing we've got.

Suarez and Vickers have both been on the two-way range. Vickers far more often, but in an offensive context, with body armor, and long guns, and team members, and more training than money cay buy. Suarez w/ nothing but his sidearm and maybe a vest.

They're both people I plan to train with. Neither are "wrong".

[WitsBusa]

Snub nosed revolvers are not for everyone especially me i were never able to hit the broadside of a barn with one, they do nothing for me , they feel awful in my hand, on the other hand my Bersa .380 is extremely reliable and will hit anything i point it at.

Nyman

Made me laugh to see you response regarding your accuracy with the snubby revolver.

I recently picked up a S&W 442 and finally got out to the range with it. I had a heck of a time starting to begin acquiring any accuracy with it. I had never shot a revolver, and that little grooved rear sight just wasn't natural at all for me. I was having the hardest time getting my location down on the target.. It looks like it is going to take me some serious effort to decent accuracy with that piece. Next range trip, I think I'll leave my G27 and S&W M&P 9mm at home and just focus on the snub..

[Thekatar]

Like I said earlier:

We have fundamental mindset differences.

I am not telling you that you are wrong or that you are a bad person, but I am telling you that I am of a completely different mindset than you.

Respectfully submitted.

This is a good discussion, despite the disagreement.

[Pro2A]

Any gun is better then no gun. My wife carries a .38 snubbie... it does just fine and would get you out of a pickle.

[knighthawk06699]

Snub nosed revolvers are not for everyone especially me i were never able to hit the broadside of a barn with one, they do nothing for me , they feel awful in my hand, on the other hand my Bersa .380 is extremely reliable and will hit anything i point it at.

Nyman

Before we split up I bought my now ex-wife a Bersa .380 thunder and it was quite a very nice gun for the money. Very reliable relatively accurate and easy to shoot.

[Thekatar]

Snub nosed revolvers are not for everyone especially me i were never able to hit the broadside of a barn with one, they do nothing for me , they feel awful in my hand, on the other hand my Bersa .380 is extremely reliable and will hit anything i point it at.

Nyman

Try a J-Frame with a CT laser - you can keep it in your pocket and make accurate hits even in low light conditions. They are extremely convenient to carry in a pocket or appendix (if you prefer) and they compliment a hi-cap semi auto very nicely as a BUG.

[dgg9]

This is a good discussion, despite the disagreement.

I doubt there's any real mindset difference. But it is a good discussion....useful too.

[synergy]

Any gun is better then no gun. My wife carries a .38 snubbie... it does just fine and would get you out of a pickle.

I think it was Hackathorn who said "the definition of an optimist is someone with a j-frame and a reload".. or something to that effect.

I can think of a lot of problems I can solve with a G19 and a spare mag, that I couldn't solve with a J-Frame and a couple speed-loaders.

Like Suarez put it in the article I quoted. If you get a gunfight where 5 shots cuts it, good for you...if you don't, you'll be dead and wishing you brought a bigger gun.

His analogy of choosing a lever gun over a FAL to fight with, is appropriate, IMO.