Heidelberg Sportsman’s Association Multi Gun Shoot

[Joe88XJ]

one more thing Matt, my attempt at pointing this rule violation is what you like to say is me "Cant keep my F$$ing mouth shut" when in reality I was just trying to see that safety rules are followed.

[Joe88XJ]

I spoke with Tom Beard tonight (club president) and I stand corrected I should not have said "we". I also asked Tom what he advises me to do in regards to the issues that have arose from the last 2 tactical shoot threads and he advised me and I am taking that advice.

Hey Joe who the fuck are you to speak for the club. you can't be that ignorant and not know you're the one everybody is upset with and talking about for the last two months. I speak for a lot of competitors we would not miss you!!!

[Joe88XJ]

Ok here goes

I have read numerous posts about brass being picked up and taken and people saying that I turn around and sell their brass that I or my son "stole" from them. Nothing could be further from the truth. Let me illustrate why....I sold the following amounts of brass and calibers over last weekend
1. 4 k of 223 to several people
2. 300 pieces of .270
3. 100 pieces of 30-06 and 57 pieces of 7mm-08
4. 200 pieces of .44 spl
5. 155 pieces of .243
6. 200 pieces of 30-06
7. 500 pieces of 9mm
8. 500 pieces of .40

this is my sales for friday thru sunday. truth is it was a busy weekend but none theless the 3 gun event isnt supplying the demand I have for brass. I save brass from being melted down and give reloaders the chance to buy it used rather than brand new. Is that wrong to do??

Do the math people....the couple hundred rounds of .223 that was picked up at the shoot isnt going to fill those orders. I purchase brass in 100 lb lots sometimes twice in a week I will buy that much....sort it by hand and sell it...simple as that. Have I asked my son to pick up brass at the shoots? Yes I have...did I teach him what I believe is proper manners with this? Yes I did and he follows them too. proper manners on this subject to me goes as follows....if you pick it up and its warm or marked somehow, ask the shooter if he wants the brass, if he says he does then hand it to him. if he doesnt then put it in our range bag. My son has already given brass to a guy standing there who hadnt fired it because the man asked for it. Now as I have said I have asked the club president for his advice on the matter, he gave it and I will follow it. If by chance we somehow picked up the brass of a reloader who wanted it I can tell you honestly we didnt want to do so. I will also share this bit of truth with you.

At the march event I was the second shooter in my squad and I fired 18 rounds of .223 brass on our first stage....put my guns down after finishing, walked out to look at my targets and when I came back to get my .223 brass only 8 of the 18 pieces were there. I shoot a left handed stag so all of my brass flys out the opposite direction of everybody elses do its usually piled on the opposite side of the place where everybody elses goes. I asked around my squad and nobody admitted to picking it up....this pissed me off and maybe i was a bit aggressive with collecting brass the rest of the day...I will address that going forward. I am pretty certain I know who took my brass and he lied straight to my face. I have never desired to take a shooters brass who wanted to keep it and more than once I have walked up to a shooter with a handful and said "do you reload?" if they nod or say yes I hand it to them. I will abide by whatever rules the club establishes regarding this for the future.

[Joe88XJ]

As stated earlier I agree to my error in judgement and have corrected my original post. I am going to state for the record that All of the individuals I brought with me have had basic pistol training and have had range time with an ar-15 as well and have other firearms events experience. Nobody arrived that day not being familiar with the guns they were using. one of those individuals took private lessons with a handgun for several months weekly with an advanced instructor(not me) one of the ladies was nervous so I asked Simon to work with her a little when we were at the gun table we were verifying which of the 2 rifles felt better for her, she opted for the one she had shot at the range for practice. None of them had any safety issues during the event, they did slow it down a bit and in discussing the issue after the fact with Tom he felt the one wasnt quite ready. I was only trying to encourage new people to join in the event. EVERYONE had range time with the guns they used! Nobody arrived that day without knowing how to handle the guns. one in particular was a little flustered and took more time. I do feel some people in this thread are using a lot of harsh words and foul language to stir up trouble.... not the person who I have quoted in this thread...Ill let you the reader decide that.

Joe,
if by (we,) you mean the HSA tactical committee YOUR WRONG.
We don't want anyone to not come and shoot. and yes we get a big turn over for what ever the reason, we don't need people leaving because of your ego and bad manners, yes we get new shooters every month and they're welcome,
But if you think bringing someone to shoot a competition who attended a class, then bought their first firearm on Tuesday,then show to compete on Saturday was a good idea, your wrong.
so go stroke your ego by spending more time at a shooting range one on one so they can become more comfortable with handling that new firearm and the one that you loaned them so they could compete, then invite them out to compete
Tom

[tripleS]

Joe, first off I myself have carried a spare mag in the event that I would drop one. Is there really a safety issue if the firearm is clear and safe prior to transitioning to another firearm or any person moving down range? Now if you want to throw stones I do happen to have video of the stage. Was there a safety issue? Honestly there is more shame to put on your own shoulders. Better judgment should have been on your part to have your friend come and watch to get an idea what is expected. Not to throw her to the wolves. Nothing amazes me more than someone trying to turn the shame onto someone else because you got called out!
There are some things that need ironing out. But remember these matches are NOT IDPA or USPSA events. But when you have one person harping (like you did) on the same thing for 20 minutes it gets old fast. And furthermore since you decided to throw stones I will too, how many targets did you help tape? I can tell you not many if any at all you were too busy picking up everyone's brass. Yes I'm the asshole that kept walking in front of you to pick up brass, only thing is I was doing the sportsman like thing to do return it to the shooter. And yes I did get several thanks for doing so. It was even said that I never get that much of my brass back from a few people.
Now let me ask you, what lesson is your son learning by picking up brass and not asking if the shooter wants it? I don't feel there is much sportsmanship being taught right there!

Sadly enough the brass issue was brought up at the safety briefing Saturday morning and you stood there with a deer in the headlights look on your face! That is until you got that phone call and decided to walk away from the safety briefing.

Shane

[Joe88XJ]

read the description of the event at the top of this page...here i will make it easy for you....it states

Competition type: 3-Gun
Location: Heidelberg Sportsman’s Association
Address: 20 Sportsman Ln. Newmanstown, PA 17073
Cost: 10

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Heidelberg Sportsman’s Association
20 Sportsman Ln.
Newmanstown, PA 17073

GPS coordinates: 40.291021,-76.290168

Registration 8:30-9:30AM
MANDATORY safety briefing 9:45AM
Shooting starts at 10:00AM
$10 per shooter

Guns needed:
Center fire semi auto pistol or revolvers, no magnum cartridges
Center fire semi auto magazine fed rifle, no larger than .308
Pump or semi auto shotgun

*** Due to the current ammunition situation there will be an addition of a .22LR class. If you mix a .22LR with a larger caliber gun you will still be scored in the .22LR class. All regular rules still apply to this class ***

Ammo:
Up to 100 rounds Pistol
Up to 100 rounds Rifle
Up to 25 rounds Shotgun, no larger than 7 shot.

4 stages. No slings. No major/minor. Scoring is time plus. A - 0 sec added. B - 0 sec added. C - 1 sec added. D - 3 sec added. Miss - 5 sec added. No shoot hit - 10 sec added.

Round count in magazines is limited to what the stage calls for.

Chamber flags are required for all long guns when not in use on the course. They sell them at the club for $2.50 a piece if you do not own any.

http://www.heidelbergsportsmensassociation.org

I am not saying that Erica did something unsafe with the way she handled her rifle. I am saying that the rule is what it is for safety reasons. Therefore carrying extra ammunition is a violation of that rule and that rules purpose is SAFETY! The only reason it went on for 20 minutes was because you and the parties involved did not want to accept it and you kept saying that there was no violation because the rule didnt exist. Dude let me and Matt hash it out....although I doubt it will happen because he wont concede to what was done wrong. I am glad to hear you have video of extra rounds being carried and also that you admit to breaking the rule yourself, I hope in June you follow the rules that EVERYBODY else has to follow.

As for me helping out....One of the things Tom Beard said to me on the phone tonight was "thank you for helping out with score keeping and RO'ing the event" in reference to our last shoot. I also taped some targets. Honestly I dont care what you throw at me...I help out in some capacity at EVERY event. Are you really trying to "shame" me ??? As for my son...if you actually read the entire post i wrote you would have seen that I taught him to ask the shooter if the brass is warm...if its cold then its from a previous shooter and theres no way to establish who that is. And as for me walking away from the safety meeting to take a call....I AM familiar with ALL of the rules I have been attending this event for 3 yrs and I had a person lost trying to find the gun club and that was her calling. I drove out to meet her. Anything else you want to discuss?? I do agree that the safety meeting is important but like I said I had somebody on their way and they got lost and I know the rules and I follow them. If I drop my pistol or rifle mag i take misses for the rest of my targets because thats the rule. None of the stones you have "thrown" change the rules stated at the top of this web page...who is trying to deflect wrongdoing now??

Joe, first off I myself have carried a spare mag in the event that I would drop one. Is there really a safety issue if the firearm is clear and safe prior to transitioning to another firearm or any person moving down range? Now if you want to throw stones I do happen to have video of the stage. Was there a safety issue? Honestly there is more shame to put on your own shoulders. Better judgment should have been on your part to have your friend come and watch to get an idea what is expected. Not to throw her to the wolves. Nothing amazes me more than someone trying to turn the shame onto someone else because you got called out!
There are some things that need ironing out. But remember these matches are NOT IDPA or USPSA events. But when you have one person harping (like you did) on the same thing for 20 minutes it gets old fast. And furthermore since you decided to throw stones I will too, how many targets did you help tape? I can tell you not many if any at all you were too busy picking up everyone's brass. Yes I'm the asshole that kept walking in front of you to pick up brass, only thing is I was doing the sportsman like thing to do return it to the shooter. And yes I did get several thanks for doing so. It was even said that I never get that much of my brass back from a few people.
Now let me ask you, what lesson is your son learning by picking up brass and not asking if the shooter wants it? I don't feel there is much sportsmanship being taught right there!

Sadly enough the brass issue was brought up at the safety briefing Saturday morning and you stood there with a deer in the headlights look on your face! That is until you got that phone call and decided to walk away from the safety briefing.

Shane

[MEK1911]

I never thought I would come on here to justify our actions just to clear things up for those who care about the incident in question. first I did not instruct her she has a mind of her own to think with, it was not a noob mistake or a purposeful run around the rules but this is a tactical shoot and we train the way we might have to fight sometime and We never carry the minimal amount of rounds anywhere we go in life we never once fired more then the exact round count and our guns are always locked open magazines clear per the rules before we move on. but don't expect us to shoot and not be able to complete the course of fire because we had a catastrophic jam and needed to dump the mag you can stick it and that goes for everyone . I also stated to the squad If you want to give her a time penalty we will take it. my comment about show me the rules was more of an statement directed at the club not so much at Joe there has been an attempt for years to get a set of rules written. and my comments about his fucking mouth was the fact that he just wouldn't let it go and kept busting our balls about it,Joe did take away from her day at the shoot and she does a whole lot more for that club than he ever has. and no I did not play dumb he also referenced the score keep I'm not sure if he was talking about Steve or Shane they were the only other ones on the squad besides myself neither one of them agreed with you and yes everybody on that squad had the stones to call out a violation if there was one. if a competitor has a problem with a score violation it is not his duty to take it to the shooter but to the RSO or the MD I do find it interesting of all the things said by so many different people this is the one thing he attacks me on.

[Joe88XJ]

Dude read the event description at the top of this page, I asked Tom B. directly and he stated you are not allowed to carry extra rounds and you did instruct her have Shane post of the video he claims to have on youtube....you walked right up behind her and coached her about the malfunction....now you are flat out lying...have Shane post the video with sound....I dare you to put it up...perhaps you might want to review it before you do.

I never thought I would come on here to justify our actions just to clear things up for those who care about the incident in question. first I did not instruct her she has a mind of her own to think with, it was not a noob mistake or a purposeful run around the rules but this is a tactical shoot and we train the way we might have to fight sometime and We never carry the minimal amount of rounds anywhere we go in life we never once fired more then the exact round count and our guns are always locked open magazines clear per the rules before we move on. but don't expect us to shoot and not be able to complete the course of fire because we had a catastrophic jam and needed to dump the mag you can stick it and that goes for everyone . I also stated to the squad If you want to give her a time penalty we will take it. my comment about show me the rules was more of an statement directed at the club not so much at Joe there has been an attempt for years to get a set of rules written. and my comments about his fucking mouth was the fact that he just wouldn't let it go and kept busting our balls about it,Joe did take away from her day at the shoot and she does a whole lot more for that club than he ever has. and no I did not play dumb he also referenced the score keep I'm not sure if he was talking about Steve or Shane they were the only other ones on the squad besides myself neither one of them agreed with you and yes everybody on that squad had the stones to call out a violation if there was one. if a competitor has a problem with a score violation it is not his duty to take it to the shooter but to the RSO or the MD I do find it interesting of all the things said by so many different people this is the one thing he attacks me on.

[Pagoda240]

You guys should take this offline... I think at this point everything that could be considered constructive has been said. At this point all we can do is prepare for the next range trip / next match.

[GLOCK 357]

I triple dog dare you!!! WTF? Are we 10years old now