AK 47 Recoil echoing through stock?

[chauncey]

two questions:
1. is the rifle possibly firing out of battery? one way to tell may be to have someone stand to your right and "see" if a blast of hot gas is escpaing. along with this, i would check your headspace.
2. did your ammunition stock by any chance get damp? i recall an episode i had with some wet 12-gage shells, i had quite a few years ago...ouch!

[mak47]

Explain in greater detail what you mean about transferring more recoil through the stock instead of the spring? Like if it was not cycling the action right I would be getting more physical recoil from the shot being fired? That's what it feels like - it does not feel like the bolt carrier slamming to the rear - it feels like the recoil forces are exacerbated by something and it's literally twisting the gun about and into my face. But at the speed at which things are happening in that weapon my perceptions cannot really be counted on to be accurate. I also did not have the presence of mind to look at cases or even how far it was tossing them. The friend I had there for a while (before I started really shooting the AK) marveled at the path of cases in the snow thrown by the PSL however. There was a swath tossed from 10 to 35ft and he could not believe how it far threw them.

Basically, it's why a PSL doesn't have anywhere near the recoil of a Mosin Nagant, even though they fire the same cartridge. The gas system, transfers the recoil through the gas tube, into the piston, and through the recoil spring. By the time it reaches the receiver and stock, it is substantially reduced.

If a gas system weren't functioning properly, if it were clogged or otherwise restricted, all of the recoil would transfer to the receiver and stock. The round would stilly probably cycle from the force of the recoil, but you would definitely notice a weak ejection.

I'm betting your recoil spring is the issue at this point though. I just experienced a similar issue with my two Bulgarian AK-74's. One has the triangle folding stock, the other is standard wood. By all rights the folder should kick more because it is substantially lighter.

I'd never taken them both out at the same time until yesterday. When I did, I noticed the wooden stock gun was kicking and jumping around a lot more than the folder. They're both basically identical except for the stocks.

I swapped out the recoil spring from the folder to the other gun and the problem was solved--and subsequently noted in the folder. Just goes to show that not all surplus parts are as used as others. In this case, the one recoil spring was obviously worn out and will be replaced.

It's probably been like that all along for you, but it wasn't until you stopped shooting it and adapted to the other guns that you took notice of it.

[Asmodeus6]

Ok I understand exactly what you are saying about the gas system now and I fully agree MAK. But it is not plugged. I had significant fouling down the piston and bolt carrier from that outing. More so than usual which stuck out to me as a potential clue at first that might have something to do with the problem. But could be simply that I wiped the BCG down with oil when I put it away and I know I didn't wipe it off when I fired it. Maybe there was enough there that it just "collected" more fouling than usual. That I can't say for certain.

I really don't think this is an out of battery issue. This is not a new rifle, but it doesn't have 10k on it either. It does have a few K on it, less than 3k though most likely. The charging handle is all the way forward and the bolt lugs make contact and lock into place. A couple mm from this position and the bolt carrier tail will stop the hammer in it's arc. (It won't reach the firing pin) I have verified this. Another proponent to it not firing out of battery is that I am still alive, and have all my fingers and toes. And any AK I've ever seen fire out of battery sends shit flying. Usually at minimum it puts the dust cover into low orbit...

I don't have head space gauges for an AK. But I have not seen any case deformation or primer's popping or flowing out either. There isn't significant gas cutting on the bolt either so again. I don't think this is the issue, but I can't say for absolute certain.

None of the ammo shot that day has left the sealed cans the mags were pulled from. All of it short of maybe 60 rounds have sealer on both the case neck and primer. None of it has ever been exposed to water either. And those little silica gel packs are thrown into all my safes, ammo cans, and opened ammo boxes. I'm going to say with decent certainty wet ammo is probably out of the question.

[JP8]

Asmodeus6, I've been thinking about this for 20 minutes now. Based on what you said and did, the only thing I can think of is the hole in the barrel that's supplying the gas tube is a large irregular shape (an ellipse?). That might explain why the problem gets significantly worse as the firearm heats up....the hole is just getting more irregularly larger allowing too much gas into the recharge system.

Throwing shells 35 feet is a sign of way too much pressure or a flacid spring. The fact that the rifle recharges though is proof positive that the spring is working.

Take the gas tube off and shine a light in the block. Look down the barrel and see what the gas hole looks like.

Being that it's a Romanian, who knows what they used. They might have been using a step-bit and went too deep leaving only a thin piece of flashing to serve as a hole. That would be the correct diameter cold, but upon operating temperature would change things drastically.

I would advise you not to fire this rifle anymore until you figure out the problem.

[Asmodeus6]

If all that was left was a flashing eske hole it would have blown out already. The rifle has been hot and cold a bunch of times and has had countless rounds through it.

The gas tube hole in the barrel is the size of the hole in the gas block. There isn't flashing and it's round. It's a big ass hole. It is not plugged, partially plugged - etc.

I tried to get a picture with a bright flashlight shining down the bore and it's just too hard to get to focus on the dot of light inside the gas block.


As far as not shooting the rifle - uh, yeah whatever you say there bud. It's the first thing I'm going to do on the first opportunity I have. So I can keep trying to sort this out.

[mak47]

Asmodeus6, I've been thinking about this for 20 minutes now. Based on what you said and did, the only thing I can think of is the hole in the barrel that's supplying the gas tube is a large irregular shape (an ellipse?). That might explain why the problem gets significantly worse as the firearm heats up....the hole is just getting more irregularly larger allowing too much gas into the recharge system.

Throwing shells 35 feet is a sign of way too much pressure or a flacid spring. The fact that the rifle recharges though is proof positive that the spring is working.

Take the gas tube off and shine a light in the block. Look down the barrel and see what the gas hole looks like.

Being that it's a Romanian, who knows what they used. They might have been using a step-bit and went too deep leaving only a thin piece of flashing to serve as a hole. That would be the correct diameter cold, but upon operating temperature would change things drastically.

I would advise you not to fire this rifle anymore until you figure out the problem.

Despite popular myth, the Romanians made actual military firearms and still do. Most, if not all, of the commonly available Romanian AK variants come from demilled parts kits. That doesn't mean there was anything wrong with them, it just means they made a crapload of 'em and sold them off after they whacked Caucescu.

While there are some differences between AK's from different countries of origin, they are largely aesthetic. The Romanian versions are actually quite solid guns. I've found them to be just as accurate (if not more so) than others, and equally reliable. They may be a bit uglier than some, but it's an AK, not a centerfold.

Let's rule out two possibilities:

Asmodeus, you're right about firing out of battery. An AK just won't do it. Interweb rumors may abound, but they are just that, rumors. Despite what many consider to be the laughable crudeness of the Kalashnikov system, it's action is brilliant in it's simplicity.

First, the hammer will not fall until the bolt carrier is far enough forward to give it clearance. If it did, you'd have some very noticeable problems on your hands, they'd look a whole lot like a gun that has been run over by a tank.

Second, the carrier moves at the same speed as the hammer, so if the carrier is ahead of the hammer, then it is physically impossible for the hammer to strike the firing pin before it comes to a full stop at the chamber.

If for some strange reason the bolt carrier was impeded from getting all the way into battery, and the hammer were to somehow fall, it's still not much of a concern. Take out your AK and chamber a round slowly, watching it move into the chamber. You'll notice that the rim of the case isn't grabbed by the extractor until it is fully chambered. Now, take out your bolt and push your firing pin forward. You'll notice that it doesn't extend past the raised edge that surrounds the case rim.

Therefore, even if the hammer were to fall on an out of battery cartridge, it is extremely unlikely that the firing pin would contact the primer at all, let alone with enough force and depth to fire the round.

If the hole from the barrel to the gas port were widening with heat, I would think that two things should occur:

1. Accuracy will suffer tremendously--remember, that hole is right there in the barrel, if it were deforming, so would the barrel and that would be noticeable.

2. Recoil would decrease, not increase. The more gas that goes through the hole, the less that is transferred through the receiver and into the stock. If the port were widening, more would be getting through, and we would likely not be hearing Mr. Asmodeus complaining about getting kicked in the cheek.

There were many things that Eastern Bloc countries were not good at doing--making weapons wasn't one of them. They all had their particulars, but they all knew how to make a reliable Kalashnikov.

The recoil spring is my answer and I'm sticking to it.

[PA Rifleman]

...By all rights the [AK] folder should kick more because it is substantially lighter.

I'd never taken them both out at the same time until yesterday. When I did, I noticed the wooden stock gun was kicking and jumping around a lot more than the folder. They're both basically identical except for the stocks.

I swapped out the recoil spring from the folder to the other gun and the problem was solved--and subsequently noted in the folder. Just goes to show that not all surplus parts are as used as others. In this case, the one recoil spring was obviously worn out and will be replaced.

^^^^^Thread winner.

Basic diagnostics 101.

[Asmodeus6]

I think we're just getting some general stabs in the dark at this point and I'll just put this on pause until I shoot it again with the different recoil spring.

Unless anyone has some AK specific advice we haven't covered already.

Thanks to MAK, rifleman, Scout, etc for helping me wade through this and keep it grounded.


I'll try to get out and shoot the rifle this week at some point to see if anything has changed if I can.

[Asmodeus6]

Ok I shot it again today - FINALLY. This is what I have come up with.

It still does it if I push my face onto the stock. No real change. I tried a couple different kinds of ammo and it's all about the same as to getting the stock to vibrate into my cheek bone. If I barely touch my face to the rifle I'm fine. If I hunker down on it - it is instantly apparent it's still an issue for me. In between, light pressure = varying amount of discomfort.

So here's what I think.

I recently stripped the rifle back down to the uber light KVAR poly furniture. I took off the beefy poly railed TDi front handguards, folding foregrip, and light. This rifle now makes my AR15 feel like a tank, and only the AMD 65 I have is lighter than this rifle. And not by much. I haven't had the original furniture on it since a week after I bought it. And it probably shed 2 pounds +. So the reality of it is that it is just flopping around more on me since it's lighter. I tried gripping it death grip tight and leaning way into it (almost exaggerating my stance) and it slightly lessened the issue.

Since I like to shoot from a firm but relaxed hold I'll just buy a cheek pad for it and call it a day.

It occured to me today since I took the AR and this AK out shooting today as I had things to mess with on both rifles. The AR is heavier than the AK now, and both have aggressive brakes. Recoil on the AR is obviously less than the x39mm AK - but being that it's a 16" barreled weapon I had my buddy bring down his 20" A2 AR to try my .22LR conversion on since it doesn't work for FUCK in my AR. (Didn't work in his either) But his gun has 3#'s of lead added front and rear to reduce recoil. Standing there with this 15# AR15 (shooting .223 when I gave up on the .22 conversion) is when it dawned on me. This weapon has no recoil. It doesn't even move. My PWS braked 16" AR recoils like crazy compared to this weapon. Why? 16" barrel and it weighs about half as much.

AK probably is probably 2#'s lighter than my AR now and recoils more to begin with. So I'm just absorbing more of it since I dropped the weight on the rifle.

Something I haven't done since I FIRST got the rifle years ago.

So it is just me, but there was a physical reason as well. Weight.

So if I keep it light weight, I'll add a cheek rest. If not - I'll put a wood stock on it, or add my light etc back on to increase the weight back up to the magic point where it has enough inertia to not smash my cheek bone.

There could be more to the issue - possibly? But it works, it's still the favorite rifle I own. And I enjoy shooting it too much to NOT enjoy it for whatever the reason is that it's beating up my face. I guess this is why the light weight poly AK74 look alike furniture... goes on an AK74... not an AK47.

[nfafan]

Yep, said that early on; the poly furniture takes away all the heft. Recoil travels right thru the hollow poly - and on to YOU.

Ran to the range and tried a WASR2 I snagged just as soon as I got it, still with the PSL butt installed. A hoot to shoot, as fast as possible, zero recoil - or so I thought.

Eventually went to plum poly, turned it into a 7.62 gun in terms of the VERY sharp recoil forces that now go onto the surface of the shoulder. Not 8mm-like, just "sharp" hit.

I think if it was wood, or certainly the PSL butt, the "sharpness" would dissappear and it would be back to being a ".22 Magnum" again.

What men don't suffer for fashion...