Is the Chesco Sheriff's deputy wrong, or am I? UPDATED: The Sheriff responds

[TheWolff]

I'm sending the Sheriff a link to this discussion. This is a fair warning to remove anything you don't want her to read (although I'm not sure why you'd post any such information in a public forum anyway).

[schr8er2000]

I worked closely with them as a probation officer for some time in Chester County. No disrespect to anyone, but you have to understand that the starting salary for a sheriff position in Chester County is 26,500 dollars a year. Their day mostly consists of standing around the courthouse as a slightly more able security guard. When I pushed my little red button under my desk for a defendant with a warrant, rest assured at least 10 sheriffs would arrive to cuff them. They are very bored, and idle all of the time waiting for action. They are very underpaid considering even the local campus police officers make more then them, and most if not all receive terrible training and little knowledge of law through chester county. Think of it this way, the courthouse is their domain, and they can do what they see fit, and if someone stands up to them, you can take it up with the judge who is, infact, on the same team as the sheriffs no matter what the scales of justice say. One of the sheriffs was telling me a story about how a local who was stopped for open carrying by the lukeoil almost was shot by WCPD for carrying his gun exposed and that it was not illegal, but it will "sure get you killed"

I disagree with you... I dont care WHAT they are paid ( and in this case it appears to be a STARTING base pay of $12.74 per hour ) ... Giving wrong info in itself is WRONG... Once a person starts to give you other info it would be in YOUR best interest to check it out for yourself. That is what an INFORMED person would do... And if all they do is sit around all day, hell I would like $12.74 for a cushey job like that.... oh sure they do get to go get someone out of the courtroom once in awhile... but averaging the pay, benefits and perks it seems like a pretty good job..

[BenP]

While your writing that letter, tell them to fix the answer to question #2 on the faq. It is wrong.

http://www.chesco.org/sheriff/cwp/view.asp?A=3&Q=609178

[internet troll]

When I pushed my little red button under my desk for a defendant with a warrant, rest assured at least 10 sheriffs would arrive to cuff them. They are very bored, and idle all of the time waiting for action.

Maybe they could use some of that down time to actually learn the laws they are suppose to enforce.

[96D]

I guess gunlaws need to be yearly training??

[mpan72]

It could be interpreted this way: A license to carry a firearm shall be for the purpose of carrying a firearm concealed or in a vehicle throughout this Commonwealth.

If that's how he's reading it, the question is how "carry" is defined. Is it in a holster, or pocket on my body, or is just having it with me somewhere in the car carrying it?

When there are multiple instances of the word "or", it's a matter of interpretation to define where the options are.

ETA: You bring up a good point about if the law doesn't prohibit something, it is legal. Maybe I'll write to the sheriff asking for an explanation and try to figure out what he was talking about regarding a fine. I'll post a draft of the letter here for tips before sending.

That is the point I am making. He or who ever explained it to him did not understand completly so they just made up some stuff to fit.

[twency]

It could be interpreted this way: A license to carry a firearm shall be for the purpose of carrying a firearm concealed or in a vehicle throughout this Commonwealth.

If that's how he's reading it, the question is how "carry" is defined. Is it in a holster, or pocket on my body, or is just having it with me somewhere in the car carrying it?

When there are multiple instances of the word "or", it's a matter of interpretation to define where the options are.

ETA: You bring up a good point about if the law doesn't prohibit something, it is legal. Maybe I'll write to the sheriff asking for an explanation and try to figure out what he was talking about regarding a fine. I'll post a draft of the letter here for tips before sending.

For the purpose of this discussion, it doesn't really matter how "carry" is defined. 18 Pa.C.S. § 6106 makes carrying a firearm in a vehicle illegal unless the person has a valid license or meets another exception.

18 Pa.C.S. § 6106: Firearms not to be carried without a license
(a) Offense defined.--
(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), any person who carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license under this chapter commits a felony of the third degree.
...

18 Pa.C.S. § 6109: Licenses describes a valid license, one purpose of which is to carry in a vehicle.

18 Pa.C.S. § 6109: Licenses
(a) Purpose of license.--A license to carry a firearm shall be for the purpose of carrying a firearm concealed on or about one's person or in a vehicle throughout this Commonwealth.
...

Ergo, if you have a license to carry firearms, you may carry in a vehicle.

If you aren't "carrying" by having a firearm in a glovebox, then you aren't breaking 18 Pa.C.S. § 6106, so you can't legitimately be charged with breaking it. "On or about" your person has nothing to do with carrying in a vehicle.

[TheWolff]

For the purpose of this discussion, it doesn't really matter how "carry" is defined. 18 Pa.C.S. § 6106 makes carrying a firearm in a vehicle illegal unless the person has a valid license or meets another exception.18 Pa.C.S. § 6109: Licenses describes a valid license, one purpose of which is to carry in a vehicle.

Ergo, if you have a license to carry firearms, you may carry in a vehicle.

If you aren't "carrying" by having a firearm in a glovebox, then you aren't breaking 18 Pa.C.S. § 6106, so you can't legitimately be charged with breaking it. "On or about" your person has nothing to do with carrying in a vehicle.

That makes sense. I need to spread it around, but I'll rep you when I can.

[TheWolff]

After some input, here's what I've got:

Good Afternoon Sheriff [redacted],
I was in your office today with my wife, who was applying for her LCTF. I’d like to take a second to say that I appreciate how the Chester County Sheriff’s office handles that process. It is quick, easy, and holds to the UFA outlines. I’ve heard many stories from places nearby that make it much more difficult, so thank you for that.

I’d like a bit of clarification about the information we received from [redacted] after my wife submitted her application and had her picture taken. He told her that PA is an open carry state, but the Sheriff’s department doesn't recommend it. He told her the license allows her to conceal or to carry in a vehicle as long as it is "on your side", and that if she gets stopped, if the officer asks if she's carrying and she says "yes, it's in the glovebox or under the seat", she'll get a fine. He mentioned that those purses that are designed with a holster in them and implied that they “don’t count” if it’s not on your person.

When I refuted his statement and asked for the name of the fineable offense or charge, he said he didn’t know it, but he sure there was one, and the other deputy at the counter agreed, but also could not think of the name of it. He said the deputy behind him would agree that I would get a fine for carrying with a LCTF if the gun was under the front seat and “he knew more about it than anyone in here”. That deputy unfortunately was on the phone, so I couldn’t get the name of the charge from him either.

Here’s what the UFA has to say:
§ 6109. Licenses.

Purpose of license. -- A license to carry a firearm shall be for the purpose of carrying a firearm concealed on or about one's person or in a vehicle throughout this Commonwealth.

18 Pa.C.S. § 6106: Firearms not to be carried without a license
(a) Offense defined.--
(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), any person who carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license under this chapter commits a felony of the third degree.

From that, I garner that a LCTF allows me to carry in a vehicle. Is there another, more specific statute or case law I’m not aware of that specifically addresses the firearm’s proximity to me? If not, and it not being mentioned here, I have to assume that it’s not specifically forbidden and thusly, legal. I ask because while traveling with a seatbelt on, I have little to no access to 3oclock on my waistband, or to a front pocket holster, so a mounted holster elsewhere in the vehicle is desirable.

I started a discussion thread on the Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association’s Open Carry/Concealed Carry forum, asking if anyone could clarify the offense, and where in the law it states that a weapon in a vehicle, with a LCTF must be carried physically on your person. So far, no one has any knowledge of such an offense. You can find the discussion thread here: http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-ope...rong-am-i.html . I told them I’d be requesting clarification from you, and we are eager to hear your response.

I’d like to say that the entire conversation I had with [redacted] was conducted in a civil, professional manner, and more than being right, he seemed like he personally and genuinely wanted to pass along the information so I would not get fined in such a situation. I respect the work your men and women do there, I just want us all to be on the same page regarding the laws of our land. I appreciate your time in addressing my concerns regarding this matter.

[XACEX]

the "co" in "Chesco" = the "County" in "Chester County"

therefore its just "Chesco" not "Chesco County"


i realize this post has nothing to do with anything. just sayin.


proceed.