Long Range Scope

[PBArcher8]

Thanks everyone, I looked at the Apex scope, and I really like what I have seen and read about it. One question though, I have grown up with typical scopes and have not used any scopes with target turrets on them, how exactly do they work? Thanks again for all the help and suggestions.

[mauser]

To state it as simply as I know how, you adjust them by turning a knob with your fingers rather than needing a tool such as a coin or screwdriver to make the adjustment.

See some info here:

http://www.binocularsdirect.com/Leup...ftztylhsc.html

[Tomcat088]

I'm in agreement with many of the others here, for the size of the target that you are shooting at and the caliber and weight of bullets you are using, you're starting to get to the extreme range. Shooting small caliber rifles with light bullets at small targets get tough, and you need some luck. While a more expensive scope might help you some, it may not help you at all. As others have said, heavier bullets would be better, but I'm not sure if your barrel will stabilize the heavier bullets. I'm going to show you some numbers just to help prove the point. These calculations were done in JBM simplified with a 55 grain Nosler ballistic tip using Bryan Litz BC, and being pushed at 3,240 fps. Rifle zero'ed at 100 yards.

I want you to notice the difference in wind drift at 500 yards with only a 1 mph misjudgement of wind. These are the estimated values for 10 mph crosswind and 11 mph crosswind.

Yardage Drop (IN) Drop (MOA) Wind (IN) Wind (MOA)
500 -52.5" -10.0 34.8" 6.6 <<10mph crosswind
500 -52.5" -10.0 38.3" 7.3 <<11mph crosswind

Notice that misjudging the wind by 1 mph at 500 yards, or getting a 1mph shift in wind at 500 yards reults in the bullet impacting 3.5" the other direction. So it very well could be that the wind is changing or gusting 1-2 mph. This would be hard to feel, and only experienced windreaders would see it in the mirage, but it's enough to causes misses even if you had perfect hold and trigger control. On paper, this isn't a lot and can be easily adjusted for, but when trying to make coldbore shots on targets that are pretty narrow in terms of width. Not a lot of room for error with a center hold and accounting for wind, so that's why many of us think it would be better if you could possibly use a heavier bullet or different (larger) caliber for that length of shots.

Now in terms of reticles, I agree and disagree with people here. I agree that mil-dot reticles are not optimal for shooting at very small targets or trying to shoot the smallest groups. I also think that fine crosshairs and duplex reticles are not optimal for trying to make correct adjustments from a missed coldbore shot. All the time I hear people say "well just hold 3" over" etc, but in practice I don't know that many people who accurately can judge 3"@500 yards through a scope, and how it looks different from 3"@400 yards. I've never had problems hitting fairly small targets with mil-dots or TMR reticles. We don't have woodchucks around for me to shoot, so I haven't shot any at 500 yards, but I have shot a lot of prairie dogs at 400 yards. Prairie dogs are quite a big smaller and much more narrow. Part of how much the reticle will cover depends on what magnification the scope goes to, since most peopl prefer a SFP (Second Focal Plane) scope, the reticle will NOT cover the same amount of the target at different magnifications.

There's a few other things that I think are funny about some recommendations that people haven't mentioned. I hear lots of recommendations for a duplex reticle, which is fine. If one is using a duplex reticle, they will have to dial the elevation, since there are no reference to verticle hold points. One would also have to try to estimate the wind hold, or dial it into their scope. this means that a person is using the intersection of the 2 crosshairs to aim. I have seen very few scopes (besides very cheap ones) where the intersection of the crosshairs on a mil-dot scope was any thicker than that of a duplex scope. In "fine duplex" reticles, they're sometimes a little thinner than mil-dot scope reticle intersections, but not by a lot; at 500 yards I doubt it amounts to much more than 1 1/2". On a standard mil-dot reticle, it's only .2 mils across, which means at 500 yards it covers 3.6". While that's quite a lot of area, it's still nowhere near covering up a groundhog completely, and it's not anymore than a standard duplex would cover. With a mil-dot scope, you don't have to use the mil-dots as a hold point, you can still dial the correct elevation and windage and use the intersection of the crosshairs, and then use the dots or mil hashes for correction on missed shots. So I honestly don't see how a duplex reticle has a mil-dot reticle beat, the mil-dot will do anything that the duplex will, plus some extra stuff.

So let's talk about a very fine crosshair. How many of you have tried to shoot animals in various lighting conditions with a very fine crosshair? Fine crosshairs are GREAT for shooting at paper targets, and light colored objects, but when you start putting very fine crosshairs against dark backgrounds (like animal fur) or dark conditions, it quickly becomes VERY difficult to see the crosshairs. They're so fine that you can hardly tell exactly where they're at on the dark target. I don't see too many illuminated reticles on fine crosshairs. With the fine crosshairs you also have almost nothing as a reference to make corrections. Sure you can hold off to the side of the target what you THINK is 3" or 5", but it's still playing the S.W.A.G game (Scientific Wild Ass Guess). In my experience most people can't accurately judge 500 yards with their eyes, much less 3" or 6" above or beside a target at 500 yards. The further away you are from the target with less things to reference on, the harder it gets. So with the mil-dot reticle, you don't have to use the dot or hash as a reference to hold on the target, you could still use the intersection of the crosshair to hold however many inches beside the target and you'd still be doing the same thing that you were doing with other reticles. People say, "well why would you use the crosshair held off to the side, if you can hold one of the other dots or hashes on the target?" "Exactly" would be my answer.

I think the TMR reticles, or reticles that are similar to the MP8 in the IOR's are about as good as it gets. You have hashes without the dots, so you have multiple fine aiming points and can see and make corrections. Since we're talking about small targets in close and sometimes quite a ways out, there's not gonna be a perfect reticle. Either the reticle covers up a pretty good size of the target, or it's so fine you lose it on the dark fur of the animal. It's always a tradeoff. I like Leupold's varmint hunting reticle pretty well myself. I think it is a little bit thick for 500 yards shooting on small targets, but it still works pretty well. If you look at this reticle that Leupold designed for varmint hunters, it's not all that far TMR reticles, or some of the "Christmas Tree" reticles that tactical shooters use. Maybe I'm just a little biased because I am a big fan of milling reticles and Christmas Tree reticles, but unless we're talking VERY small groups on paper, I haven't seen many things that a milling reticle does bad on.

[Tomcat088]

Thanks everyone, I looked at the Apex scope, and I really like what I have seen and read about it. One question though, I have grown up with typical scopes and have not used any scopes with target turrets on them, how exactly do they work? Thanks again for all the help and suggestions.

The important thing about using any type of scope to dial corrections is that it dials consistently and repeatably. If the scope won't do that, when you dial your corrections and attempt to come back to zero, the rifle won't be zero'ed. So then the next time you try to dial back out to a distance, it won't be correct either.

The important thing about distance shooting with any kind of target turret, is first knowing your "dope". "Dope" is the amount of correction that your scope needs, so that you can hold the crosshairs dead on and fire. You don't just hold over the target, but you dial the correction into the scope so that the scope is accounting for the drop of the bullet. Even on non target turret scopes, you'll usually see some markings denoting Minute Of Angle (MOA). This sometimes confuses people because they're used to thinking of "inches" when they talk about drop. Most people think of it as 1 click on my scope equals 1/4" at 100 yards or 4 clicks equals roughly 1"@100 yards, and in thinking about it this way, they get confused later when the distance isn't 100 yards. You see, at 200 yards, that 1 click equals 1/2", and 4 clicks equals 2", etc. MOA is an angular measurement that changes with the distance.

Most of us put all the information for our load in a ballistic calculator. It will tell us about how much drop the bullet will have for the conditions that you're shooting in. Then we go out and actually shoot at those distances to find out what our real dope is and record it. The ballistics calculator just saves us some rounds, although out to 500 yards if you put all the conditions in properly, they're not usually too far off. The ballistic calculator will give you the correction in "MOA" if you want it to. So then you look at your scope and the numbers on it, and dial into however many MOA you need to correct for. Say that the program says you need to dial 3.5 moa, well you turn the knob on your scope to 3, and then 2 more clicks is halfway to 4 (assuming 1/4 moa clicks), or 14 clicks total. If you had 1/8 moa clicks, you would dial to 3 and then 4 more would be halfway, or 28 clicks total. Don't worry about counting the clicks, pay more attention to the numbers, that's what they're there for.

Initially you zero the rifle, and then there's a screw that will loosen the turret but NOT adjust scope. You unscrew that screw, and turn the turret until it reads 0. This way, you can dial out to the distance that you need, and you can always dial it right back down to 0 to return to whatever range you zero'ed your rifle for. Some scopes also have revolution counters, which are hashes that are explosed as you twist the turret up. This helps when you have to dial up a lot of MOA, and you have to do more than 1 turn. Not all scopes have this though, so it just depends. Then the windage works the same way, you can also slip it to 0 after zero'ing the rifle. Some people would rather just "hold" the wind if they have a reticle, while others like to dial the predominant condition and wait for the wind to go back how it was and shoot.

Here's a picture of my turrets to give you an idea of the markings I'm talking about and how you just dial to the number. My particular scope has turret locks that help keep the turrets from moving when you don't want them to.


Some scopes still have these markings, but they're not finger adjustable. They will still work, but they can be more of a pain to adjust since you have to use a coin or screwdriver. Sometimes people don't like target turrets because they stick up quite a bit higher, and it's easy to hit them on things or for them to get turned. I never worry about this because I always look to see if my rifle is on 0 before I start shooting, or I dial to the dope I need for the range I need. People that aren't used to dialing their turrets get all flustered when their rifle isn't zero'ed at 100 yards, or 2" high at 100 yards, etc. That's the reason for slipping the turrets to 0, it's easy to get back on your zero, and dial out to where you need to be. I should also mention that some scopes don't have "target turrets", but they're "finger adjustable". I personally like these turrets on a hunting or varmint hunting rig. The turrets aren't taller than a normal turret, but when you unscrew the turret cover, there's a knob that still has MOA markings, and you can turn with just your fingers. The Nikon Buckmasters are a good example of these type of turrets, and LOTS of other scopes are this way as well. The only downside is they're small and a little more "cramped" to turn, but they don't get turned unless you want them to (since you take the turret cover off), and they don't stick out real far. Here's a photo of a finger adjustable turret with 1/8 moa clicks. Notice how it has revolution marks so you can tell how high it is, and how it also have threads where a cap goes over it.

[Pukindog]

Tomcat, Great info; as usual.
I use Leupold 8.5-25X50 LR with the Varmint Hunters reticle on 5 of my main varmint rifles. These scopes perform flawlessly. The scopes are not cheap, but like everything else, you get what you pay for.

Jeff

[PBArcher8]

Yes, thanks ALOT Tomcat, very helpful information.

[Chazman321]

Tomcat is a very intelligent individual, and he always has great information and can put it in stupid terms for people like me when I'm having an off day... lol I would rep you Tomcat, but it seems I can't, so I'll rep some other people first... lol

-Chaz

[Policraticus]

If you are LEO or Military Nightforce had a nice discount program last time I was shopping. Their value is superb vs. their competition like Leupold Mk4s, USO, Smidt&Bender PMIIs.

[Chazman321]

Just a rule of thumb for .223 rifling twist and bullet weights:

1 in 12" and 1 in 9" is good for bullets up to 55 grains

1 in 8" and 1 in 7" is good for the heavier bullets up to 75 grains

So before you start buying bullets to reload, make sure your rifle will stabilize them or else you just loaded a bunch of ammo that won't shoot well in your rifle... lol Most rifles don't have the slower twist needed for the heavier rounds, so that would be a good starting point if you're looking to move up in grains...

-Chaz

[PBArcher8]

Most rifles don't have the slower twist needed for the heavier rounds, so that would be a good starting point if you're looking to move up in grains...

Isn't a 1 in 12" twist slower than a 1 in 7"? I may be wrong too considering my experience. I was thinking with the information you gave, that the heavier bullet needed a quicker spin. Sorry if I made things confusing, thanks for your help Chaz.