Private Security powers?

[knight0334]

Been checking out 'citizen's arrest'. From what I can find Pa allows citizen's arrest for felonies and certain 'breach of peace' misdemeanor offenses but NOT summary offenses. The applicability to other misdemeanors is unclear.

Its certainly an interesting topic to explore.

Since defiant trespass is a misdemeanor (third degree) it is unclear if security, lacking any specific governmental empowerment, can arrest for possession of a firearm against rules of entry.

I find it hard to believe, absent statute or case law, that a 'security' person will arrest for trespass. THeir only recourse would be to attempt to obtain your ID under 'mere encounter' rules, clear view ID (ex: vehicle plates) or ID info from a third party (charge card number from merchants, some who can ID you, etc) and then prefer charges. There's always the first test case but I doubt that the 'security' person, their employer or their customer want to become that case. They may tell you to stay and wait for LEO but they can't physically detain you without risking criminal and civil suits.

Just IMO and not to be construed as legal advice.

Breaches of the Peace can and do include some summary offenses. The PA Supreme Court ruled that even some traffic offenses(summary) were indeed a breach of the peace in a case where a Sheriff's Dept was busting speeders and for other violations(they also ruled that the Sheriff's Dept also had to have the same vehicular training as municipal/state police). Defiant Trespassing* and Disorderly Conduct** area couple of the breaches of the peace that are also a summary offense, there are more.

Common Law Arrests can be made for the following:
1. when there is reason to believe a felony has occurred
2. breaches of the peace that you've witnessed personally
3. when a warrant has been issued for the detainee's arrest

DT* is a summary until you are asked to leave and fail to do so
DC** is a summary unless substantial harm is intended or if the violator persist.

[Swarner793]

Since defiant trespass is a misdemeanor (third degree) it is unclear if security, lacking any specific governmental empowerment, can arrest for possession of a firearm against rules of entry.

As I have often advised individuals that I have been responsible for training and just the ones I have worked with, it is difficult to testify that the reason you detained someone is because they would not leave. I could see that in front of a Judge or a Jury, Defendant:"he asked me to leave, but I could not, he forced me to the ground and put me in handcuffs".

One instance where it may be applicable to sieze/detain a trespasser is if you are in a circumstance where not "grabbing" him would lead to an escalation or furtherance of his conduct. I work Nightclubs and have for years. If an individual is expelled and he attempts to flee into the club. Stopping him from entering the club would be advisable. Some nights, there may be 1500 patrons in the club I work at now. That would be a problem. But then, PA CSA Title 18 507 Use of Force for the Protection of Property would apply and that is a whole other ball of yarn.

Be safe (and if you told them to leave, let them leave).

Scott

[RXM]

My friend is a regional supervisor for loss prevention of a particular clothing store. They are not allowed to physically restrain or detain anyone even if they capture you stealing on camera. The only thing that they can do is confront the person and talk them back into the store and to wait for the police. At no time are they allowed to physically touch the suspect. He said that there are legal implications of touching someone and they could turn around and sue. This is what I was told and IANAL so that that for what it is worth. I'd be interested on the law regarding this.

[Swarner793]

My friend is a regional supervisor for loss prevention of a particular clothing store. They are not allowed to physically restrain or detain anyone even if they capture you stealing on camera. The only thing that they can do is confront the person and talk them back into the store and to wait for the police. At no time are they allowed to physically touch the suspect. He said that there are legal implications of touching someone and they could turn around and sue. This is what I was told and IANAL so that that for what it is worth. I'd be interested on the law regarding this.

Your friend is correct that that is the position of most, if not all, retailers. The law addresses the issue of lawsuits and has a level of civil protection built into it. Another risk to consider is injury, or worse death, that can arise out of a physical confrontation/apprehension. If I lose some teeth or break something my employer is responsible for those costs. If I were killed, forgetaboutit, my employer carries a fairly decent life insurance policy on me, with a double indemnity clause. They self insure. I certainly would not have saved the company any money. When you say "they are not allowed" that is the policy of the employer, not the law.

As far as interest in the law, Post #2 of this thread has the statute posted.

Be safe (and have a laissez-faire approach).

Scott

[emsjeep]

So I was at work today, and some of the anti gun people and I had a talk. One actually teachers police officers at the one training academy .

A private properties security, mall, ect. Can legally detain you, for ANYTHING if they figure out you have a weapon on you (of any kind) and its not allowed by their policy. Which I thought was bullshit, they have to ask you to leave first (correct).

Then we got into the debate if they are not LE officers, just security there is NO way I am giving them any of my information. I was informed if I did this, I could get "taken down" and then when they call the police get charged with DC, Resisting and so on. WTF is this?

Then we got into carrying on college campuses when I go visit friends, "if they find out, it doesn't matter if your a student or not, they can legally arrest you, and charge you with trespass, and dc, they DON'T have to ask you to leave first".

What's everyone think?

Can private security do anything besides ask you to leave? If you don't leave, then your screwed.

As for colleges I know, they can't do anything as well besides ask me to leave since I am not staff, or a student. Correct?

This story is in a thread somewhere, but I'll pass it on again. At a certain PA College I know of a student's friend who was visiting and, stupidly, informed his friend that he was carrying. That friend told someone else who called security who called the Police. The local PD disarmed the subject and escorted him from the property, disassembled his firearm and wrote him for DC. No threats had been made, there was no scene or disagrement. The man had a valid LTCF. Whether anything came of those charges, I do not know. However, the guys picture is posted in the security office with orders to call the PD if he is seen on or near the property. My guess is that any competent judge would dismiss that completely at the drop of a hat, but it will be on the record and he will be out the court time and money.

[mak47]

As someone who is not very familiar with the legal powers that private security personnel may or may not have, I would advise your friend to stop telling people they can detain anyone for any reason.

From my perspective, and I'm sure others may have a similar view, a security guard at...let's say Wal-Mart...can ask me to leave, or even to search my bags, but if I've done nothing wrong I can see no reason why I need to pay much attention to them.

If one tried to "take me down" because they noticed I was armed, I would be more likely to think they were assaulting me and might be inclined to defend myself from that assault.

I'm not trying to come off as a hothead or anything, but if I'm just in a store or a mall minding my own business and somebody comes rushing towards me in attack mode I'm not looking for their identification--I'm going to take defensive measures. I'd be willing to bet I'm not the only one who would react this way either.

If your friend is advising security trainees that they can detain anyone for any reason, and then to "take them down" if they don't comply, I'm truly concerned that one of these students may get themselves hurt one day.

[reverserboy]

If one tried to "take me down" because they noticed I was armed, I would be more likely to think they were assaulting me and might be inclined to defend myself from that assault.

Me too.

--I'm going to take defensive measures. I'd be willing to bet I'm not the only one who would react this way either.

No...you're not.
I know a guy who would fall when he was grabbed & claim the rent a cop injured his back or neck.

If your friend is advising security trainees that they can detain anyone for any reason, and then to "take them down" if they don't comply, I'm truly concerned that one of these students may get themselves hurt one day.

Yep....hurt,sued or charged with a crime and/or employer sued.

[NY Refugee]

This again goes to the I am a "___________" (fill in the blank) and there for know the "law". These people get very tiring after a while. Anyone can tell you anything but without back up proof it means poop.
So when I have someone tell me this I always ask for some corroborating material. Show me a badge and ID, so me the law, tell me where you teach at, etc.... and as anyone who has been around here for a few days or more, many cops don't even know the law.
The I'm not a lawyer but I play one on the internet, does not cut it.
good job to the OP for being skeptical of the "teacher"

[ALS]

How many act 120 Police officers are not completely up to speed on every aspect of criminal law? And this I'm the smartest guy in the room is teaching marginal law to people who actually think he knows what he is talking about.

[DaveM55]

Licensed guards should never hold themselves out to be Police, and licensed guards are required to produce an ID card and a security license when asked to do so.

This thread is 5 years old since the last post. And who do these guards have to present an ID card and security license to? Is this a requirement in your state?