Results 71 to 80 of 91
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May 5th, 2024, 01:30 PM #71Super Member
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Re: ATF is changing the term "business" for FFL's.
That*s a ton of *what if** and no concrete proof. Again, i know how this will play out and it wont be how you think. You are correct in that you are not a lawyer, but that your perception of the ruling is not. If you wish to wear a tin foil hat then be my guest, but no second amendment violation exists here. I find it funny that most people who argue that they dont need to be licensed to be a dealer are the ones that oppose illegal immigration. Irony at its finest. I get that you want to be a dealer without having to get an FFL, do record keeping, be open for inspections, do background checks, report taxes, and be regulated*but that doesn*t mean its the right way to do things. After all, as another member stated just because you have been doing something for many years without getting caught, doesn*t make it right or moral.
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May 5th, 2024, 02:28 PM #72
Re: ATF is changing the term "business" for FFL's.
Let us not confuse Biden Administration ATF edicts that attempt to implement extremely stretched reinterpretations of the Gun Control Act with having anything to do with morality and right or wrong.
Just because one is a car enthusiast and one buys and sells cars as part of or for enhancing the hobby or collection does not make one a car dealer. A gun enthusiast doing the same for their hobby or collection, without more, does not make them a gun dealer as that term is commonly understood in America. Though, I am sure in addition to disregarding the Heller decision and the statutory definition of dealer in the Gun Control Act, the Biden Administration will ask the courts to disregard how language is commonly used when it comes to who is a gun dealer.
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May 5th, 2024, 02:43 PM #73Grand Member
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Re: ATF is changing the term "business" for FFL's.
I don't think that's the argument.
I think it's more about people selling an occasional gun for more than they paid for it, or liquidating a collection, the profit and/or quantity factors.
Serious questions for comparison: If someone has a collection of 30 cars and decides to sell them all privately, would they be in hot water for being an unlicensed dealer? Or if they bought one car and sold it for more than they paid, are they an unlicensed dealer?
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May 5th, 2024, 04:17 PM #74Super Member
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Re: ATF is changing the term "business" for FFL's.
Clearly you are hung up on something and interpreting the redefinition incorrectly. No one is after a collector. Please name one case where a collector selling one or two firearms per month was prosecuted. I can name several cases of people selling *the private collection* for years at multiple gun shows each year (15-20 shows each year). This new definition is aimed at them, not a collector. Since this is the 5th day of the month in which the new redefinition has taken effect, please cite any collectors being nabbed up.
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May 5th, 2024, 04:26 PM #75Super Member
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Re: ATF is changing the term "business" for FFL's.
Serious answers. Yes, some states do dictate that if a person sells several cars per year*.they are a dealer and must pay taxes associated with that activity. I*m not a car flipper so i dont know the exact state laws for PA on this matter.
I think you are missing the fact that profit is no longer regarded as the sole definition of being a dealer. So if a collector does indeed sell part or the entirety of his collection he still would not be considered a dealer unless he restocks the same type of firearm and repeats the process. The verbiage actually cites this exact situation.
Like i said, i get that some people think they can be dealers without having to do it properly. The reality is that some of the guys this redefition is aimed at have sold thousands of firearms over the last few years. They skirted the law then and now it makes them more accountable. This isn*t going to be a witch hunt. The ATF already knows (and has for many years) who sets up at multiple shows every year and that they are not a licensed dealer. I*m sure the ATF will have a conversation with those individuals at some point and suggest they get a dealers license. I*m also sure that if there is need for a second conversation, it wont be as pleasant.
In closing, this new redefinition does not infringe on anyone*s 2A rights. It doesn*t keep or prevent anyone from buying, possessing, or selling a firearm. I understand that some people are here get very excited about a new law and stretch it out to the most inconceivable circumstance. However, the fear mongering is unjust at best. Until we hear about any entity getting nabbed for this, i think making up false circumstances is moot.
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May 5th, 2024, 04:36 PM #76Grand Member
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Re: ATF is changing the term "business" for FFL's.
Reread the actual wording in the law (I posted it in post#47). Does this answer your questions? To me it is a clear you can sell a personal collection and you can make a profit.
If you bought the large "personal collection" last week and are now selling them all.......not so much.
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May 5th, 2024, 07:19 PM #77
Re: ATF is changing the term "business" for FFL's.
The unlicensed dealing in firearms charge has a long history of abuse. The abuses of ATF of this charge (and other provisions of the Gun Control Act) became so severe that Congress had to pass further legislation to protect gun owners and (FFLs) in 1986 (Firearm Owners Protection Act). The Biden Administration is attempting to effectively repeal by regulation part the Firearm Owners Protection Act that was meant to protect gun owners from this charge.
To start with examples of the abuses of this charge, GOA documented a case of such abuse of this charge in the documentary Breaking The Law In The Name Of The Law: The BATF Story. The story of Don Breier, a gun hobbyist and collector, who was targeted by ATF begins at about 23:10. It can be found here linked to 23:10 at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eePciUhVAwY&t=1389s.
The full video can be watched below:
Last edited by Mosinshooter762; May 5th, 2024 at 07:46 PM.
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May 5th, 2024, 08:48 PM #78Super Member
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May 5th, 2024, 09:13 PM #79Grand Member
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Re: ATF is changing the term "business" for FFL's.
Many of these earlier abuses was because the previous laws did not specifically make it clear what a personal collector was and this was left vague and up to interpretation. The new ruling clearly clarifies the definition and how many times does it have to say that you can sell any of all of your personal firearms for a profit? I don't know how their new statements in the ruling couldn't be clearer.
What parts of the new ruling do think is more strict than the previous vague statements? And specifically what rights did anyone lose?
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May 5th, 2024, 10:25 PM #80
Re: ATF is changing the term "business" for FFL's.
The final rule is definitely not consistent with the Firearms Owners Protection. Why should there be a presumption that one is gun dealer if one more than occasionally trades a gun in for another gun at a dealer? Why can not one liquidate part or all the collection if one runs into tough times or for some other reason and then later rebuild the collection under this final rule? ATF also apparently doesn't recognize any other type of collector than those who collect curios and relics. ATF doesn't recognize firearms owned for self defense as being part of a hobby or collection. So if you sell what you believe is your 'collection' of defensive firearms, the ATF may presume under the final rule that you are dealing in firearms. We could go on about the problems.
You'll have to pardon but it appears that the final rule changes are not all showing in the Code of Federal Regulations yet which makes it more difficult to easily cite and analyze. See below. Parts are bolded for emphasis.
See: https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/...2024-07838.pdf
§ 478.11 Meaning of terms.
* * * * *
Dealer. Any person engaged in the
business of selling firearms at wholesale
or retail; any person engaged in the
business of repairing firearms or of
making or fitting special barrels, stocks,
or trigger mechanisms to firearms; or
any person who is a pawnbroker. The
term shall include any person who
engages in such business or occupation
on a part-time basis. The term shall
include such activities wherever, or
through whatever medium, they are
conducted, such as at a gun show or
event, flea market, auction house, or gun
range or club; at one*s home; by mail
order; over the internet (e.g., online
broker or auction); through the use of
other electronic means (e.g., text
messaging service, social media raffle,
or website); or at any other domestic or
international public or private
marketplace or premises.
* * * * *
Engaged in the business** * *
(3) Dealer in firearms other than a
gunsmith or a pawnbroker. The term
**engaged in the business as a dealer in
firearms other than a gunsmith or a
pawnbroker** shall have the same
meaning as in § 478.13.
* * * * *
(7) Related definitions. For purposes
of this definition*
(i) The term **purchase** (and
derivative terms thereof) means the act
of obtaining a firearm in an agreed
exchange for something of value;
(ii) The term **sale** (and derivative
terms thereof) means the act of
disposing of a firearm in an agreed
exchange for something of value, and
the term **resale** means selling a
firearm, including a stolen firearm, after
it was previously sold by the original
manufacturer or any other person; and
(iii) The term **something of value**
includes money, credit, personal
property (e.g., another firearm or
ammunition), a service, a controlled
substance, or any other medium of
exchange or valuable consideration,
legal or illegal.
* * * * *
Former licensee inventory. Firearms
that were in the business inventory of a
licensee at the time the license was
terminated. Such firearms differ from a
personal collection and other personal
firearms in that they were purchased
repetitively before the license was
terminated as part of a licensee*s
business inventory with the
predominant intent to earn a profit.
* * * * *
Personal collection (or personal
collection of firearms, or personal
firearms collection)*(1) General
definition. Personal firearms that a
person accumulates for study,
comparison, exhibition (e.g., collecting
curios or relics, or collecting unique
firearms to exhibit at gun club events),
or for a hobby (e.g., noncommercial,
recreational activities for personal
enjoyment, such as hunting, skeet,
target, or competition shooting,
historical re-enactment, or
noncommercial firearms safety
instruction). The term shall not include
any firearm purchased for the purpose
of resale with the predominant intent to
earn a profit (e.g., primarily for a
commercial purpose or financial gain, as
distinguished from personal firearms a
person accumulates for study,
comparison, exhibition, or for a hobby,
but which the person may also intend
to increase in value). In addition, the
term shall not include firearms
accumulated primarily for personal
protection: Provided, that nothing in
this definition shall be construed as
precluding a person from lawfully
acquiring firearms for self-protection or
other lawful personal use.
(2) Personal collection of licensee. In
the case of a firearm imported,
manufactured, or otherwise acquired by
a licensed manufacturer, licensed
importer, or licensed dealer, the term
shall include only a firearm described in
paragraph (1) of this definition that
was*
(i) Acquired or transferred without the
intent to willfully evade the restrictions
placed upon licensees under 18 U.S.C.
chapter 44;
(ii) Recorded by the licensee as an
acquisition in the licensee*s acquisition
and disposition record in accordance
with § 478.122(a), § 478.123(a), or
§ 478.125(e) (unless acquired prior to
licensure and not intended for sale);
(iii) Recorded as a disposition from
the licensee*s business inventory to the
licensee*s personal collection or
otherwise as a personal firearm in
accordance with § 478.122(a),
§ 478.123(a), or § 478.125(e) (unless
acquired prior to licensure and not
intended for sale);
(iv) Maintained in such personal
collection or otherwise as a personal
firearm (whether on or off the business
premises) for at least one year from the
date the firearm was so transferred, in
accordance with 18 U.S.C. 923(c) and 27
CFR 478.125a; and
(v) Stored separately from, and not
commingled with the business
inventory. When stored or displayed on
the business premises, the personal
collection and other personal firearms
shall be appropriately identified as **not
for sale** (e.g., by attaching a tag).
* * * * *
Predominantly earn a profit. The term
**predominantly earn a profit** shall
have the same meaning as in § 478.13.
Principal objective of livelihood and
profit. The intent underlying the sale or
disposition of firearms is predominantly
one of obtaining livelihood and
pecuniary gain, as opposed to other
intents such as improving or liquidating
a personal firearms collection: Provided,
That proof of profit shall not be required
as to a person who engages in the
regular and repetitive purchase and
disposition of firearms for criminal
purposes or terrorism.
* * * * *
Responsible person. Any individual
possessing, directly or indirectly, the
power to direct or cause the direction of
the management and policies of a sole
proprietorship, corporation, company,
partnership, or association, insofar as
they pertain to firearms.
§478.13 Definition of **engaged in the
business as a dealer in firearms other than
a gunsmith or a pawnbroker.**
(a) Definition. A person who devotes
time, attention, and labor to dealing in
firearms as a regular course of trade or
business to predominantly earn a profit
through the repetitive purchase and
resale of firearms. The term shall not
include a person who makes occasional
sales, exchanges, or purchases of
firearms for the enhancement of a
personal collection or for a hobby, or
who sells all or part of the person*s
personal collection of firearms. In
addition, the term shall not include an
auctioneer who provides only auction
services on commission to assist in
liquidating firearms at an estate-type
auction; provided, that the auctioneer
does not purchase the firearms, or take
possession of the firearms for sale on
consignment.
(b) Fact-specific inquiry. Whether a
person is engaged in the business as a
dealer under paragraph (a) of this
section is a fact-specific inquiry. Selling
large numbers of firearms or engaging or
offering to engage in frequent
transactions may be highly indicative of
business activity. However, there is no
minimum threshold number of firearms
purchased or sold that triggers the
licensing requirement. Similarly, there
is no minimum number of transactions
that determines whether a person is
**engaged in the business** of dealing in
firearms. For example, even a single
firearm transaction or offer to engage in
a transaction, when combined with
other evidence (e.g., where a person
represents to others a willingness and
ability to purchase more firearms for
resale), may require a license; whereas,
a single isolated firearm transaction
without such evidence would not
require a license. At all times, the
determination of whether a person is
engaged in the business of dealing in
firearms is based on the totality of the
circumstances.
(c) Presumptions that a person is
engaged in the business as a dealer. In
civil and administrative proceedings, a
person shall be presumed to be engaged
in the business of dealing in firearms as
defined in paragraph (a) of this section,
absent reliable evidence to the contrary,
when it is shown that the person*
(1) Resells or offers for resale firearms,
and also represents to potential buyers
or otherwise demonstrates a willingness
and ability to purchase and resell
additional firearms (i.e., to be a source
of additional firearms for resale);
(2) Repetitively purchases for the
purpose of resale, or repetitively resells
or offers for resale, firearms*
(i) Through straw or sham businesses,
or individual straw purchasers or
sellers; or
(ii) That cannot lawfully be
purchased, received, or possessed under
Federal, State, local, or Tribal law,
including:
(A) Stolen firearms (e.g., 18 U.S.C.
922(j));
(B) Firearms with the licensee*s serial
number removed, obliterated, or altered,
or not identified as required by law (e.g.,
18 U.S.C. 922(k) or 26 U.S.C. 5861(i));
(C) Firearms imported in violation of
law (e.g., 18 U.S.C. 922(l), 22 U.S.C.
2778, or 26 U.S.C. 5844, 5861(k)); or
(D) Machineguns or other weapons
defined as firearms under 26 U.S.C.
5845(b) that cannot lawfully be
possessed (e.g., 18 U.S.C. 922(o); 26
U.S.C. 5861(d));
(3) Repetitively resells or offers for
resale firearms*
(i) Within 30 days after the person
purchased the firearms; or
(ii) Within one year after the person
purchased the firearms if they are*
(A) New, or like new in their original
packaging; or
(B) The same make and model, or
variants thereof;
(4) As a former licensee (or
responsible person acting on behalf of
the former licensee), resells or offers for
resale to a person (other than a licensee
in accordance with § 478.57 or § 478.78)
firearms that were in the business
inventory of the former licensee at the
time the license was terminated (i.e.,
license revocation, denial of license
renewal, license expiration, or surrender
of license), whether or not such firearms
were transferred to a responsible person
of the former licensee after the license
was terminated in accordance with
§ 478.57(b)(2) or § 478.78(b)(2); or
(5) As a former licensee (or
responsible person acting on behalf of
the former licensee), resells or offers for
resale firearms that were transferred to
the licensee*s personal collection or
otherwise as personal firearms in
accordance with 18 U.S.C. 923(c) and 27
CFR 478.125a(a) prior to the time the
license was terminated, unless:
(i) The firearms were received and
transferred without any intent to
willfully evade the restrictions placed
on licensees by 18 U.S.C. chapter 44;
and
(ii) One year has passed from the date
of transfer to the licensee*s personal
collection or otherwise as personal
firearms.
(d) Predominantly earn a profit*(1)
Definition. The intent underlying the
sale or disposition of firearms is
predominantly one of obtaining
pecuniary gain, as opposed to other
intents, such as improving or
liquidating a personal firearms
collection: Provided, that proof of profit,
including the intent to profit, shall not
be required as to a person who engages
in the regular and repetitive purchase
and disposition of firearms for criminal
purposes or terrorism. For purposes of
this section, a person may have the
intent to profit even if the person does
not actually obtain the intended
pecuniary gain from the sale or
disposition of firearms.
(2) Presumptions that a person has
intent to predominantly earn a profit. In
civil and administrative proceedings, a
person shall be presumed to have the
intent to predominantly earn a profit
through the repetitive purchase and
resale of firearms as defined in
paragraph (d)(1) of this section, absent
reliable evidence to the contrary, when
it is shown that the person*
(i) Repetitively or continuously
advertises, markets, or otherwise
promotes a firearms business (e.g.,
advertises or posts firearms for resale,
including through the internet or other
digital means, establishes a website to
offer their firearms for resale, makes
available business cards, or tags firearms
with sales prices), regardless of whether
the person incurs expenses or only
promotes the business informally;
(ii) Repetitively or continuously
purchases, rents, or otherwise
exchanges (directly or indirectly)
something of value to secure permanent
or temporary physical space to display
firearms they offer for resale, including
part or all of a business premises, a table
or space at a gun show, or a display
case;
(iii) Makes and maintains records to
document, track, or calculate profits and
losses from firearms repetitively
purchased for resale;
(iv) Purchases or otherwise secures
merchant services as a business (e.g.,
credit card transaction services, digital
wallet for business) through which the
person intends to repetitively accept
payments for firearms transactions;
(v) Formally or informally purchases,
hires, or otherwise secures business
security services (e.g., a central stationmonitored
security system registered to
a business, or guards for security) to
protect firearms assets and repetitive
firearms transactions;
(vi) Formally or informally establishes
a business entity, trade name, or online
business account, including an account
using a business name on a social media
or other website, through which the
person makes, or offers to make,
repetitive firearms transactions; or
(vii) Secures or applies for a State or
local business license to purchase for
VerDate Sep<11>2014 02:22 Apr 19, 2024 Jkt 262001 PO 00000 Frm 00125 Fmt 4701 Sfmt 4700 E:\FR\FM\19APR3.SGM 19APR3 khammond on DSKJM1Z7X2PROD with RULES3
29092 Federal Register / Vol. 89, No. 77 / Friday, April 19, 2024 / Rules and Regulations
resale or to resell merchandise that
includes firearms.
(e) Conduct that does not support a
presumption. A person shall not be
presumed to be engaged in the business
of dealing in firearms when reliable
evidence shows that the person is only
reselling or otherwise transferring
firearms*
(1) As bona fide gifts;
(2) Occasionally to obtain more
valuable, desirable, or useful firearms
for the person*s personal collection;
(3) Occasionally to a licensee or to a
family member for lawful purposes;
(4) To liquidate (without restocking)
all or part of the person*s personal
collection; or
(5) To liquidate firearms*
(i) That are inherited; or
(ii) Pursuant to a court order; or
(6) To assist in liquidating firearms as
an auctioneer when providing auction
services on commission at an estate-type
auction.
(f) Rebuttal evidence. Reliable
evidence of the conduct set forth in
paragraph (e) of this section may be
used to rebut any presumption in
paragraph (c) or (d)(2) of this section
that a person is engaged in the business
of dealing in firearms, or intends to
predominantly earn a profit through the
repetitive purchase and resale of
firearms.
(g) Presumptions, conduct, and
rebuttal evidence not exhaustive. The
activities set forth in the rebuttable
presumptions in paragraphs (c) and
(d)(2) of this section, and the activities
and rebuttal evidence set forth in
paragraphs (e) and (f) of this section, are
not exhaustive of the conduct or
evidence that may be considered in
determining whether a person is
engaged in the business of dealing in
firearms, or has the intent to
predominantly earn a profit through the
repetitive purchase and resale of
firearms.
(h) Criminal proceedings. The
rebuttable presumptions in paragraphs
(c) and (d)(2) of this section shall not
apply to any criminal case, although
they may be useful to courts in criminal
cases, for example, when instructing
juries regarding permissible inferences.
* 4. Amend § 478.57 by designating the
undesignated paragraph as paragraph (a)
and adding paragraphs (b) through (d) to
read as follows:
See: https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-27/section-478.11
Subpart B*Definitions
§ 478.11 Meaning of terms.
Cross Reference
Link to an amendment published at 89 FR 29089, Apr. 19, 2024.
Cross Reference
Link to an amendment published at 89 FR 28630, Apr. 19, 2024.
When used in this part and in forms prescribed under this part, where not otherwise distinctly expressed or manifestly incompatible with the intent thereof, terms shall have the meanings ascribed in this subpart. Words in the plural form shall include the singular, and vice versa, and words importing the masculine gender shall include the feminine. The terms *includes* and *including* do not exclude other things not enumerated which are in the same general class or are otherwise within the scope thereof.
Act. 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44.
...
Collector. Any person who acquires, holds, or disposes of firearms as curios or relics.
...
Curios or relics. Firearms which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:
(a) Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof;
(b) Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and
(c) Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event. Proof of qualification of a particular firearm under this category may be established by evidence of present value and evidence that like firearms are not available except as collector's items, or that the value of like firearms available in ordinary commercial channels is substantially less.
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