308 AR with a 16 inch barrel

[cybersurf]

Originally Posted by MichaelVain

I would recommend the KAC SR-25 EMC (Enhanced Match Carbine). It is a 16" .308 rifle based on the SR25/Mk11Mod0/M110 SASS. It has a bunch of new features such as a proprietary enhanced reliability bolt, full dimpled barrel, , URX rail with integrated fold up weapon sights. It's extremely light for a .308 and it comes stock with a SOPMOD stock, and QD sling mounts. You can use Magpul mags or any compatible SR25 magazine.

Those are quite nice but a little too expensive for me . Seems like they are going for about 4500.00 but they look awesome.

[cybersurf]

Originally Posted by Asmodeus

Well, I have a 24" AR10T, a 16" AR10 LW Carbine, and a 12.5" Noveske Leonidas.

The Noveske is just as accurate as the AR10T, but I wouldn't use it to shoot 600 yards. The AR10 carbine I have has a pencil barrel, and after a few shots it starts to string hits due to the barrel heating.

Withthe Noveske, my 17 year old son was easily able to hit a 12" steel plate at 300 yards, offhand.

I also have an M1A SOCOM 16. I've shot bowling pins with it at 200 yards with ball ammo and probably 90% hits once I dialed it in.

Armalite used to sell a 16" AR10T. Quality barrels are out there, but the velocity loss is what makes hits problematical at long ranges.

Just picked up my LMTMWS 308 yesterday evening and I can say this thing is built like a brick shithouse. The barrel is nice and thick also heavy because of the quick change mount and zero play between upper and lower, another plus.

I have since read that the 16 inch barrel is actually very accurate as it has less flexion (if that is a word, thats what they used) but for my purpose an 18 inch blackened SS 5r barrel would be better as they are getting good performance at 600 yards. I read this on another forum(snipershide) which had some Brits on there that were actually issued them and trained on them. They seem do be doing very well with them. I guess only a select few were trained on them so far or at least only a few are posting about them.
This is going to be a good learning experience for me , hopefully I can shoot to the capacity of the rifle.

I cannot wait until I can take it to the farm and try some serious long distance shooting with it. But right now I am waiting for my glass to arrive, I've ordered a nightforce 3.5-15 X 50 NXS for it.

[animalmother85]

Originally Posted by MichaelVain

I would recommend the KAC SR-25 EMC (Enhanced Match Carbine). It is a 16" .308 rifle based on the SR25/Mk11Mod0/M110 SASS. It has a bunch of new features such as a proprietary enhanced reliability bolt, full dimpled barrel, , URX rail with integrated fold up weapon sights. It's extremely light for a .308 and it comes stock with a SOPMOD stock, and QD sling mounts. You can use Magpul mags or any compatible SR25 magazine.

Is this your rifle? and where in upper bucks are you? I plan on picking up a ar-10 style rifle when I come home Afghanistan. If you don't mind, I'd like to look at yours before I shell out a few grand.

[MichaelVain]

I am near Quakertown, send me a PM and we can hook up.

[chauncey]

i am a member of the club that believes 308 minimum barrel length is 18"

[billt]

I don't have a 16" .308 AR, but I do have a 16" M-1A SOCOM 16, along with a 22" National Match. Toss in a few bolt actions with barrels up to and including 30", (Savage Model 12-F/TR). About all you get with a 16" is more noise. To be honest the .308 is a 600 yard cartridge regardless of what you shoot it out of.

Yes, a 30" Savage will give some extra range to it, especially with some of the slower burning powders, but not enough to bring about some kind of miraculous extension in performance. It's really surprising how far the little M-1A SOCOM will reach, even with the standard Trijicon Sights. Most any of the .308 AR-10 platforms will give decent .308 performance. If you need to go further than 600 yards, a .300 Win. Mag. will get you there with performance to spare. Bill T.

[MichaelVain]

Originally Posted by chauncey

i am a member of the club that believes 308 minimum barrel length is 18"

I'm assuming you are advocating 18" for velocity reasons, here's a breakdown from KevinB of Knight's with velocity from 16" EMC and 20" SR25.

16" M110 Carbine
Average Muzzle Velocity (of 10 Rounds) in Feet per Second (FPS) in 16” Barrel M110 Carbine:

Ammunition
Un-Suppressed

M118 LR U.S. Army
2475

Lapua 167 gr.
2465

Lapua 170 gr.
2478

Lapua 185 gr.
2265

Subsonic Lapua 200 gr.
1021


Average Muzzle Velocity (of 10 Rounds) in Feet per Second (FPS) in 16” Barrel M110 Carbine:

Suppressed

M118 LR U.S. Army
2476

Lapua 167 gr.
2485

Lapua 170 gr.
2485

Lapua 185 gr.
2282

Subsonic Lapua 200 gr.
1019


Average Muzzle Velocity (of 10 Rounds) in Feet per Second (FPS) in 20" M110 SASS

M118LR
2556

Lapua 167gr
2624

Lapua 170gr
2637

Lapua 185gr
2410

Subsonic Lapua 200gr
1028


Suppressed

M118LR
2561

Lapua 167gr
2545

Lapua 170gr
2610

Lapua 185gr
2390

Subsonic Lapua 200gr
1025

[chauncey]

Originally Posted by MichaelVain

I'm assuming you are advocating 18" for velocity reasons, here's a breakdown from KevinB of Knight's with velocity from 16" EMC and 20" SR25.

16" M110 Carbine
Average Muzzle Velocity (of 10 Rounds) in Feet per Second (FPS) in 16” Barrel M110 Carbine:

Ammunition
Un-Suppressed

M118 LR U.S. Army
2475

Lapua 167 gr.
2465

Lapua 170 gr.
2478

Lapua 185 gr.
2265

Subsonic Lapua 200 gr.
1021


Average Muzzle Velocity (of 10 Rounds) in Feet per Second (FPS) in 20" M110 SASS

M118LR
2556

Lapua 167gr
2624

Lapua 170gr
2637

Lapua 185gr
2410

Subsonic Lapua 200gr
1028

so looks like about 200fps. may be not enough to matter, but for 4"? maybe it's worth it, but i would like to have seen the comparison to 2". i might take an 18" w/o FS over a 16" w/ FS

I'll keep the 2"

us eromutts gotta keep whatever we got.

plus iirc the powder burn is complete in 18" not 16" so iguess there is less flash (i don't have a 16" 308, if i do it will probably be a Saiga!)

[MichaelVain]

I agree that for accuracy or DMR or Precision type rifle, you want at least 18" and probably preferably a 20" barrel like the M110 or Mk11Mod0 does have.

The SR-25 EMC is classified as a Battle Rifle, and for engagements 600M and in on human targets. Also, the barrel is dimpled through to the receiver to give it even less weight. The URX is very light as well. All in all, for a .308 battle rifle this one is amazingly good. It was just selected by an SOF group as their 7.62 carbine after beating out other contenders. That's not a reason to go buy one, but it's just an example that it was field tested by folks way more qualified than me.

Here's a picture of it with the suppressor that was just released. It adds 6" to the overall length.

[Tomcat088]

Hmmm, well this has been an interesting thread to say the least. Lots of talk, but not all that much data to back up what's being said. I've seen velocity numbers, but only the bullet weights being mentioned. I haven't seen anything about what powder or blends of powder was used, just that a XX grain bullet was used. That doesn't tell us much about the system, or anything else. On gas guns, there's also TONS of other variables that come into play. Does the rifle have an adjustable gas block, and if so is it tuned properly for that particular load? What gas length is the rifle using, and is it acceptable for the particular powder that is being used? There are more lengths than just "mid length" "rifle" "carbine" etc. What is the optimum burn length for the powders that are being used with particular bullets? What is the pressure curve for that particular powder? What other modifictions have been made (heavy buffers, etc), have been made to change the impulse of the action and how it cycles in relation to the bullet being down the barrel or exited, etc.? All of these things are VERY important to the velocities and consistency that you'll get from a gas gun.

Gas guns are dynamic systems, and as such, lots of things are going on at one time. Gas guns in general will NOT get the same velocity as a bolt gun, because they're bleeding off some of the gas to cycle the action; this happens whether it's a piston or D.I. gas gun. Most people never thought that 16" barrels on .308's would be all that great, but things have changed. There's quite a few guys shooting 16" barreled bolt guns to 1,000 yards and consistently making cold bore hits. You gotta push the right reload to do this, and most guys are getting it done with 155 grain Scenars and the right powder and an adjustable gas block. You can push the 155's fast enough to keep them supersonic to 1,000 yards in a bolt gun. I'm not sure if you could push the bullets fast enough from a semi auto gas gun to get to 1,000 yards. I know for a FACT that you could get to 600 yards without a hickup, if you tune the system properly. This would make for a short, good handling and pretty balanced rifle. Lots of LR guys think of the .308 as more of an 800 yards cartridge that can be stretched out to 1,000 with the right shooter and on a good day. Most gas guns don't quite have the same consistency to hang with a bolt gun past 800 yards anyway. Either way, when you put 600 as the range that you will most likely be shooting to, 16" shouldn't be a problem IF you're using the right reload and tune the rifle for it.

Lots of talk happens about the SR-25, M110 SASS, etc. The fact of the matter is that not that many of them are carried in the sandbox. Sure there's some being carried, but not as many as people think there are. I have friends that are or were snipers, and several of them or their buddies refused to carry the SR25 or the M110. Lots of them rather carry the M24 or M40, even though these rifles were supposed to replace them. Part of it depended on what they thought they were gonna get into, and what distances the engagements were gonna happen. There's a difference between urban and open fighting, and A-stan and Iraq. Most of the real operators think of them as 2 seperate tools for different jobs. Either way, their reliability in sand has been questions, and it's part of the reason why some prefer to carry the bolt gun even if they're going to be in urban settings. I won't get into it much more, but just wanted to throw that out there for all the talk about how so and so group adopted this and is supposed to be using it, etc.

Either way, the .308 isn't a "fast" cartridge anyway, so you're probably not looking to hot rod it. It's hard enough to do right in a bolt gun, and not what you're going to be doing with a gas gun. Gas guns have come a LONG ways in terms of accuracy, and with the right shooter and load, they're more than capable to 600+ yards. You shouldn't have any problems with a 16" AR-10 shooting to 600 yards.