Target World (Chalfont) - bad info (IMO) and interesting insurance situation

First off, let me say that I have no axe to grind with Target World. I've been shooting there for a long time (even before I owned a gun I would go and rent various ones). I know there are many knowledgeable employees, but this one guy worried me.

To begin on an ancillary note, he was wearing sandals (of some open-toed variety). I'll admit I'm not a range safety specialist, but are open toes really advisable when you may need to go out on the range where hot brass will be flying?

So I walk into the range for a day with one of my .22 rifles. This gentleman is behind the counter talking to a customer who is discussing getting his LTCF before buying a firearm, when I came up to the counter to shoot and started overhearing the conversation. The counter guy is telling the customer that when he gets his LTCF, he *has to* carry concealed, and that if he even prints conspicuously, he might receive a lot of unwanted attention (harassment) from LEOs. He goes on to tell the customer that he'll want to consider this when he considers the size of his firearm(s). I didn't want to be "that guy" that just injects himself into a conversation to argue with someone, so the best I could come up with was to recommend to the customer that he do some reading on the internet to learn more comprehensive information on PA gun/carry laws (I mentioned PAFOA and PAOC). I am planning to call and ask them if I can bring in a stack of the PAOC flyers for customers (and maybe that guy will read them as well).

The other event I am going to try to present as objectively as possible, as I can see valid points on both side of the coin. Two guys came into the range; one guy who seems like he's a more seasoned shooter, and a man who had just purchased his first handgun (possibly his first gun) at the shop upstairs. The gun was a 9mm, but I'm unsure of make/model. The range officer asked the buyer if he had shot before, to which he replied that he had shot rifles before, but not handguns. The range officer then told him that he had to start on a .22 for insurance reasons. The buyer's friend (the seemingly more seasoned shooter) was upset by this statement, and said that he hadn't brought any of his 22s. The RO said that they had a 22 revolver that could be rented. The friend sounded angry at this statement, saying something to the effect of "so he just spent 500 and some dollars upstairs, and now you want another $20 so he can shoot a 22 that he doesn't want to shoot". The conversation turned to when the buyer could "move up" from the 22 rental to the gun he had just purchased, and the RO explained that the determination was made by the ROs based on the control, safety, accuracy etc. shown by the shooter. Around this time, the buyer said that he guessed he would go to another range, and the friend quickly took his ID and the range paperwork back from the RO. The RO said that he needed the paperwork to void it, and the friend ripped it up and said basically "there, it's voided." The RO said "you don't need to give me attitude", and the friend said that it wasn't attitude, but that the RO didn't need his information because he didn't and wasn't going to shoot on that range.

So what do you all think? Someone can go upstairs and buy whatever first handgun they want, and to the best of my knowledge, it's never mentioned upstairs that you'll have to effectively qualify with a smaller gun (that you'll have to rent) before you'll be allowed to shoot it. On the other hand, of course it's ultimately the RO's decision what is and isn't okay, based on his knowledge of the facility rules, insurance provisions, knowledge of the shooter's skills/experience. But do you feel like they might end up losing a significant amount of business due to these rules? Their website does not mention anything that I can find regarding this policy.

I used to shoot there a few years ago, I stopped going in there because of those type of incidents. They need to revisit their training package and ensure that everyone is on the same page and enforce what ever it is they decide to make a rule, uniformely and not by whatever day or time or whim it is. I have similar incident, where I have seen or happen to me, where some ridiculus rule, that some moron pulled out of the hat that day, was enforced just based on his opinion. I was even told one time that to purchase a gun I needed a permit, whatever that was. I walked out and never looked back. However I must say that I find that sort of attitude in several gun shops I visited, especialy the type of shop that tends to be a little larger then the mom and pop where they might have more employees that they really need. I say forget them and move on to a better shop where your money and opinions are appreciate and where opinions are not facts or "LAW'S".

I never been to target world, but their bad reputation precedes them.
The old insurance regulation crap is the usual scapegoat for making up rules as they go along. No insurance underwriter is going to write a policy that requires training on a 22 cal. first before "stepping up". There is enough to consider when writing policies without going into language regarding calibers and outside ammo.

I was there a couple of years ago and was asked to draw a sight picture before on a piece of paper before I could shoot...

To be honest, I can't really blame them for being overly careful, it is their business and they can run it as they see fit. If people do not like it they can go elsewhere (like I have).

In regards to the OP and the .22 rental I can see their point, but they should have let the guy use it for free since he just bought his gun.

FWIW whenever I let my friends who have never shot before shoot a handgun, I start them out in my 22 pistols.

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Originally Posted by glocke12

I was there a couple of years ago and was asked to draw a sight picture before on a piece of paper before I could shoot...

To be honest, I can't really blame them for being overly careful, it is their business and they can run it as they see fit. If people do not like it they can go elsewhere (like I have).

In regards to the OP and the .22 rental I can see their point, but they should have let the guy use it for free since he just bought his gun.

FWIW whenever I let my friends who have never shot before shoot a handgun, I start them out in my 22 pistols.

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Your correct about seeing their point. It is a privately owned range, they could make any policies they want. That being said, they should be honest enough to state their policy without going into the insurance policy excuse.

I'm guessing that since the suicide there in 2007, they are trying to be cautious. Understandable.

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Originally Posted by bigdawgbeav

I'm guessing that since the suicide there in 2007, they are trying to be cautious. Understandable.

I love within walking distance of TW and won't go there. Their prices suck, the range is dark and needs an overhaul. On top of that, the guys that work there are very sullen and think they are an expert on everything gun related.

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I don't see how that's a reaction to the suicide. If I put a .22 to my temple and pull the trigger, I probably don't have a great shot at surviving. Now, Classic Pistol's policy is that to rent a gun, you must be in a group of 2 or more and/or have your own gun as well (I wanted to shoot a 1911, and they had one there to rent, so I rented it, even though I had my sidearm on me). That seems like more of a suicide prevention measure to me; either you're going in with someone, which makes it less likely that you're going to do that, or you already have your own gun, so you wouldn't need to bother going to a range to do it.

Their range is dark, but at the same time that might not be an all-around bad thing. Thinking from a self-defense/hunting standpoint, if I can sight quickly and shoot well in a dimly-lit scenario, I would think it would be easier to transition to a well-lit/daylight scenario than the other way around. I haven't had many bad experiences with salesmen there.

bigdawgbeav, I'm in a similar situation to yours, except that the range that's walking distance for me is Clayton's. I went there once, and the folks that were there that day seemed kind of distant and unhelpful. I sort of wrote them off at that point. But I've gone back in when time was tight, and had some rather good experiences. I would like to join Clayton's, because I'd have so many more opportunities to go there and shoot, but $275 for a year of handgun and long gun just seems so high. It's definitely much brighter, and you can shoot more powerful weapons there, but I'm rather indecisive on long-term decisions like that.

I have been in T.W. on several occasions and have seen first hand how bad it can be in there.

The range staff has a few "issues" and needs to be straightened out before being turned loose on the public.

I'll address the LTCF thing first. Quite few of TW's employees are cops, so he was giving that "advice" from his undereducated and overconfident LEO prospective. They "know" that they know the law, while in reality most of them don't know shit. And this is one of the finest examples.

As of the .22 for the beginner. I'm an RSO myself and I will totally suggest for a newbie to shoot .22 if he has such option. But this is just suggestion. Shooter should not be pressured into that under very rare exception (like 7 yo kid). If customer doesn't have .22, then well... so be it. I'm observing new shooters very closely anyway. It's not about the caliber, but more about the shooter.

We do it NRA way. He'll start with one round anyway and observing him I'll make sure that round WILL go into the general berm (i.e. safe) direction and then I just play it by ear. I can recall only one case, when adult (very skinny early 20s guy) was not able to handle the weight of his rather higher caliber gun. And that just was not safe. Neither for him nor for the other shooters, and that was my only concern. I politely sent him home after first few rounds, suggesting to do push ups twice a day every day and come back in couple of weeks. He came back when we expected to see him. He was still far from being Hulk, but at least he managed to control the gun at that time.

He's one of the regulars now. I guess he appreciated what we did. :)

I don't get the .22 thing, are they implying that a .22 is less dangerous than other calibers?

I've never been really impressed with Target World. I always end up getting attitude from the salesmen there. They act like they don't have time for you. I remember going there with my wife (fiance at the time) a couple years ago to get a new grip for her revolver. I asked a salesman for help, and he said, "yeah hold on a minute" and then proceeded to bullshit with a customer for 10 minutes while we stood there waiting.