West Shore Sportsmen's Association - Range Closure Announcement

I am posting this as for general information as I didn't see a post on it anywhere else.

We've had to close some of the ranges at WSSA due to safety concerns.

The ranges 1,4,5,& 6 are all closed until further notice due to unsafe conditions existing on them.

The leadership is working hard to try and get things remedied as quickly and efficiently as possible.

If you shoot IDPA or Cowboy Action at WSSA you might want to check if the next match will actually be held before driving any distance to attend.

I am not an officer of the club or in any leadership position, but I do shoot there regularly with the IDPA group so I thought I would pass this on.

If you'd like more information the next general membership meeting is Tuesday, September 30th at 7:30 PM.

New range rules were also recently adopted by the club so you might want to stop out and hear about them as well.

http://www.westshoresportsmen.org/

Wanted to update my original post as I received an email from our club president today.

The official statement on the range closures are as follows:

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Due to safety concerns Range 1 and Range 5 (the plate rack) must be closed and will remain so until further notice.

Hopefully our permits from York County Conservation will come through soon and we can have the necessary changes made so we can reopen those ranges as soon as possible.

West Shore Sportsmen's Association

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Whoa...was getting ready to join.

So how would this affect me coming to practice pistols? I'm not familiar with the facilities yet.

WSSA has a total of 5 ranges of different layout for pistols. Only 2 of them are closed. You're fine.

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Originally Posted by DoverDad

Whoa...was getting ready to join.

So how would this affect me coming to practice pistols? I'm not familiar with the facilities yet.

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The range closures may make things a little more crowded until things can be brought up to snuff.

If you have the time I invite you to come to the general membership meeting on September 30th.

We will most likely be discussing the new range rules that were just adopted so it would be a good meeting to attend.

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Originally Posted by daschnoz

WSSA has a total of 5 ranges of different layout for pistols. Only 2 of them are closed. You're fine.

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:) Hi guys!

Actually, there are EIGHT ranges available for handgunning at WSSA and as of right now two of them are officially closed and one of them is de facto closed.

But on most days that wouldn't be much of a hindrance to finding a place to shoot.

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Originally Posted by daschnoz

WSSA has a total of 5 ranges of different layout for pistols. Only 2 of them are closed. You're fine.

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Originally Posted by Sam1911

:) Hi guys!

Actually, there are EIGHT ranges available for handgunning at WSSA and as of right now two of them are officially closed and one of them is de facto closed.

But on most days that wouldn't be much of a hindrance to finding a place to shoot.

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Meaning to say:

Range 1 (closed), 2, Indoor Range, 3, 4*, 5 (closed), 6*, 8.

Range 4 is not taped off, but the current range rules say only the steel plates may be shot there. However, the steel plates have been removed. One might go put up some paper targets there, but that would be technically violating the new range rules.

Range 6 is primarily a pistol range as well. But is now only open with the permission of the "Special Use Committee."

So, as of right now you can shoot paper targets on Range 2, the Indoor Range, Range 3, and Range 8 -- with handguns.

And, you can shoot any rifle up to .338 caliber on the rifle range.

So daschnoz is right -- there are 5 (well, technically four) ranges open where you could shoot pistol right now.

Thanks for the overview and invite to the meeting...the place sounds great.

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Originally Posted by Sam1911

:) Hi guys!

Actually, there are EIGHT ranges available for handgunning at WSSA and as of right now two of them are officially closed and one of them is de facto closed.

But on most days that wouldn't be much of a hindrance to finding a place to shoot.

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Sam,

There may be eight pistol ranges, but two of them are the shoothouses that are unavilable to the general membership. Range #6 (the "Cowboy range") is also closed to the general membership.


So as you said, ranges 2 & 3 remain available. Range 4 is questionable, as no paper targets are permitted and the steel was removed, which was the only target these new rules allow people to shoot at. 5 and 6 are closed. The two shoothouses are off-limits to all but the "special people". And 8 is available. And under the current rules any handgun/any caliber is still permitted on the rifle range, but you've got to be a good shot because you need to put your paper up at the 100 yard line.

And of course we still have the Indoor range.

Mike Beliveau, who does all the great videos on historic firearms, has posted a really powerful video on the effects these changes will have.

Please take a few moments and watch:

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Originally Posted by davidb72

Wanted to update my original post as I received an email from our club president today.

The official statement on the range closures are as follows:

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Does anyone know what the "safety concerns" are on the ranges that were closed? What kind of permits are needed by the county to make the necessary changes? What is the board's goal in all of this? There are some interesting comments on the video's YouTube page. Guess I will be going to the meeting on Tuesday the 30th.

I gather we'll find out exactly on Tuesday night.

There have been plans in the works for several years now to complete some serious earth-moving to improve several of the ranges, and much has already been done. I gather further permitting was needed for the next phase of all that.

Now, what that long-planned work might have to do with the emergency range closures, it is hard to say.

Please do come out Tuesday night -- and bring any WSSA members you know.

It's your club -- you get a say in what goes on.

As of today it was determined that the berms on all but one of the outdoor ranges have deteriorated beyond the point of being able to shoot safely.

All ranges are now closed with the exception of the trap range, the archery range, the indoor range, and range 8.

The IDPA matches scheduled for this weekend and the first weekend in November have been cancelled.

Earth moving operations to repair the berms will hopefully commence in the next 6-8 weeks.

No word yet if we will be setting up a poker league or perhaps a knitting circle in the meantime.

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Originally Posted by davidb72

As of today it was determined that the berms on all but one of the outdoor ranges have deteriorated beyond the point of being able to shoot safely.

All ranges are now closed with the exception of the trap range, the archery range, the indoor range, and range 8.

The IDPA matches scheduled for this weekend and the first weekend in November have been cancelled.

Earth moving operations to repair the berms will hopefully commence in the next 6-8 weeks.

No word yet if we will be setting up a poker league or perhaps a knitting circle in the meantime.

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Let's put in a couple of pool tables and a stripper pole. THAT would bring members out to the monthly meetings.

General information..
Was out at the club and all ranges but 8 are closed with a red tape.
And of course the indoor range is still operational..
Since there is some inaccurate information on this site I had to post this message in case some one drives a long distance to sight in his/her
rifle for hunting... the 100 yd range is also closed. only 8 is open.
Please no nasty replies... I do not make the rules. just a member trying
to prevent someone traveling out to the range and expected the rifle range
to be open..

Hi Buffalodiesel!

You're right, this thread wasn't updated to show the new changes. Currently only the Indoor range, trap range, archery range, and range 8 are open. Everything else is closed.

There is a meeting November 12th at 8:00 to discuss the actions of the Board with regard to the Mike Beliveau situation (asking several Officers to resign).

MOST IMPORTANT: WSSA Officers' Elections (and a vote on By Laws changes) will be held the night of November 25th at 7:30 pm! Come out and exercise your right to be heard!

Thanks!

UPDATE 11/05/14

News today!

QUOTE:

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Fellow West Shore Members.

I have learned late this afternoon that the three Board Members who moved to keep Mr. Beliveau’s keycard turned off and deny his rights and privileges after the Association voted otherwise have resigned their positions.

[Names Redacted] are the three Board Members I am aware of who moved to continue to hold Mr. Beliveau and as a member not in good standing, in defiance of the vote which restored him.

Seeing as those three have resigned, the purpose for this Special meeting no longer exists. Rather than spend our time on this matter next Wednesday night, I have asked the remaining Board Members to consider my request withdrawn.


I will see you all on the 25th for the election and vote on the Constitutional amendments.

Best regards,

Ken O’Donnell

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So it looks like we have no need of our special meeting on the 12th! On to ELECTIONS! See you on the 25th at 7:30!

I realized that the BoD could care less about firearms with buttstocks, I just haven't figured out why they haven't gotten around to changing the name of the club to WSPC - West Shore Pistol Club, or what could possibly be unsafe about the rifle range, when range 8 is still open and it shares a berm with the rifle range?

What unsafe condition exists on the rifle range that prevents members from sighting in the hunting rifles at 100 yards?

I'll be at the meeting on the 25th, and I want answers...

Sir or Madam,

I am not a BoD but was at a meeting and listened. I believe we are lucky that all the ranges were not closed down. The closing appears to be the result of the recommendations from the firm of " Fredrick M. Wentling" Firearm & Tool Mark Examiner. I forgot all of his credentials. I though he said he was retired from a state police office..but do not quote me... People were just screaming too much to hear clearly. His study was quite expensive... I forgot the amount... big bucks. He is really responsible for the close down of the rifle range....not the board. He "basically" said it was an accident waiting to happen. If you notice... all the pistol ranges are also closed.


OK,do not grill me. Contact Mr. Wentling. But he probably will not talk to you unless you write a big check$$$.

If you come to the meeting, how about some positive support. NRA will send out a man or woman to survey the range and for only about $300.00 bucks and provide the club with some positive guidance on range development.

Let us not start a pissing contest. That will solve nothing. I was at the last meeting and too many people spent their time pissing in each others faces instead of developing rational solutions.

Buffalodiesel

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I realized that the BoD could care less about firearms with buttstocks, I just haven't figured out why they haven't gotten around to changing the name of the club to WSPC - West Shore Pistol Club, or what could possibly be unsafe about the rifle range, when range 8 is still open and it shares a berm with the rifle range?

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Well, uh, first off, no Range 8 doesn't share any berms with the rifle range. Range 8 was completely rebuilt a year or so ago and has it's own berm roughly at the position of about 60 yards down the rifle range.

http://forum.pafoa.org/attachment.ph...1&d=1416365025
(Rifle range, range 9, outlined in red. The main berm is about even with the white rocks visible about half way down the red box. Range 8 lined in blue.)

Second, yeah, WSSA is set up a lot more for handguns than rifles. That's just the way the club's facilities are. There isn't much that can even be done to change that, ever, as our only "long" range rifle facility is extremely limited in range (less than 100 yards, actually) and only has about 12 firing points.

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What unsafe condition exists on the rifle range that prevents members from sighting in the hunting rifles at 100 yards?

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The biggest problems with the rifle range are:
1) Some very VERY large rocks in the face of the rear berm which send ricochets in random directions. It may -- or may NOT -- be possible to remove them.
2) A relatively low berm on the left side that really doesn't contain any errant shots heading off that way. (Where there is a house up on the ridge, by the way.)
3) The range floor is rock, exposed in a lot of places. This is thought to be responsible for causing one pistol bullet to have left the range (and be recovered under unfortunate conditions) some years ago.
4) Some steel targets way up on the berm/mountainside which cause people to aim their rifles pretty far up in the air, instead of keeping muzzles down. (Since removed.)

There are plans in development to fix this stuff, or to try to find economically feasible solutions, but it will be up to the NEW Board of Directors -- and the Membership -- to find and adopt workable solutions.

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I'll be at the meeting on the 25th, and I want answers...

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Great! But don't expect a lot of answers there. Some of us responding to this thread can offer about the best answers you'll get anywhere. But DO come out and VOTE. Some of the incumbent Board members have been GREAT. Some need to go away. Some already have resigned.

I don't care to post people's names in open forum, but if you send me a PM I'll be happy to tell you who I'm planning to vote in, and why.

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I am not a BoD but was at a meeting and listened. I believe we are lucky that all the ranges were not closed down.

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Perhaps. Range 8 had already been freshly renovated. The trap range and archery range aren't really any cause for concern. The indoor range's pressing issues were dealt with a few years ago. But we lost about all we could have lost. :(

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The closing appears to be the result of the recommendations from the firm of " Fredrick M. Wentling" Firearm & Tool Mark Examiner. I forgot all of his credentials. I though he said he was retired from a state police office..but do not quote me...

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Fred Wentling is a well-credentialed expert in crime scene forensics. Not range design. He was brought in by the majority members of the Board of Directors in order to "cover their butts" AFTER some of us members got really angry about the new range rules they adopted in August. He was brought in to justify the new range rules, but he did NOT do that. (He couldn't. He'd never even read the old rules. He hadn't very deeply read the NEW ones either.) Instead he passed judgment on the ranges themselves, and his judgment was, "You couldn't PAY me to shoot here!" :rolleyes:

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His study was quite expensive... I forgot the amount... big bucks.

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About $2,800. Which exceeded the Board's right to pay without seeking the Membership's approval. Yet another failing of the old Board.

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He is really responsible for the close down of the rifle range....not the board. He "basically" said it was an accident waiting to happen. If you notice... all the pistol ranges are also closed.

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Look, Fred was just brought in as a tool to use against the Membership, because the Membership wasn't going along with the Board majority's pet plan. He did what he thought he had to do. The decision to shut down the ranges was the BOARD's call in every case. I sat in on the meeting where they made that initial call, though that was only for closing about half of the pistol bays. They closed the rest of them within another day or two.

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OK,do not grill me. Contact Mr. Wentling. But he probably will not talk to you unless you write a big check$$$.

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There's really no reason to contact Mr. Wentling. He wrote his report and that's that. He doesn't have any authority to shut down our ranges or to open them up again. Your beef is with certain members of the old Board of Directors (and the old Range Rules Committee).

However, three of those Board members have already resigned. And we have a GREAT new selection of folks to take over those positions and several others. Again, I'll be happy to give you the names if you send me a PM.

(THREE of the old Board members have been YOUR representatives and allies through all of this. They are our Vice President, Membership Secretary, and Treasurer. They are running again. PLEASE SUPPORT THEM!)

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If you come to the meeting, how about some positive support. NRA will send out a man or woman to survey the range and for only about $300.00 bucks and provide the club with some positive guidance on range development.

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We may indeed end up asking NRA for some help, though that doesn't come without some serious strings attached, so we have to do things with eyes wide open. We shall see. Come out to the meetings in the new year and help the NEW Board make some of the hard decisions coming up!

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Let us not start a pissing contest. That will solve nothing. I was at the last meeting and too many people spent their time pissing in each others faces instead of developing rational solutions.

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No need for that sort of thing.

However, THIS MONTH (Nov. 25th, in fact) is your chance to vote for the folks who will sort this mess out in the new year. I strongly recommend you come out and vote for a new batch of knowledgeable, involved, accountable people to help us move past this rough chapter in WSSA history.

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Originally Posted by Sam1911

Well, uh, first off, no Range 8 doesn't share any berms with the rifle range. Range 8 was completely rebuilt a year or so ago and has it's own berm roughly at the position of about 60 yards down the rifle range.

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berm noun \ˈbərm\
: a small hill or wall of dirt or sand

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/berm

Not to get confrontational... but I think you are confusing the word "berm" with "backstop"

Ok, thanks.

Ranges 8 and 9 do not share a backstop berm. There is a low berm that separates the two, that we do not shoot at.

However, the relevant matters under discussion are unchanged by your clarifying remark.

If you come to the meeting, how about some positive support. NRA will send out a man or woman to survey the range and for only about $300.00 bucks and provide the club with some positive guidance on range development.

We may indeed end up asking NRA for some help, though that doesn't come without some serious strings attached, so we have to do things with eyes wide open. We shall see. Come out to the meetings in the new year and help the NEW Board make some of the hard decisions coming up!

WHAT are those "SERIOUS STRINGS ATTACHED" ?????? My understanding is that they provide their assessment and advise. What is this "string" that you are referring to???

Seems that right now.. all we have is an official study that has forced the club to halt operations....with no constructive suggestions to correct what he reported as being deficient. What is wrong with a second opinion from and agency who has range experts?

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WHAT are those "SERIOUS STRINGS ATTACHED" ?????? My understanding is that they provide their assessment and advise. What is this "string" that you are referring to???

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That's a good question for tomorrow night. I know that possibility was discussed before, and very well may be worth considering, but some who had worked with NRA on these matters expressed that there were things the club needed to consider before requesting that assistance. If I remember correctly there are issues of insurance which most clubs work with the NRA to get. If we solicit their investigations and inputs we may be bound to follow their dictates or lose our insurance. I'm not 100% sure that's the only problem or the biggest one.

As I am not one of those people, you'll have to ask if anyone in attendance tomorrow night understands the matter more fully.

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Seems that right now.. all we have is an official study that has forced the club to halt operations...

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Again, no. We have a fairly brief overview study provided by an expert in criminal forensics (that is, solving murders and such ... NOT range design), that describes some potential problems with certain conditions on the ranges.

And we have a DECISION by the former Board of Directors to shut down the ranges. The study didn't (and couldn't) force anyone to do anything. Just as no factor FORCED the Board to bring in the expert to begin with. These are just decisions made by several individuals -- most of whom have now resigned their positions.

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....with no constructive suggestions to correct what he reported as being deficient.

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Respectfully, I don't think you know what you don't know. :) But I can help with that ...

First off, there was ALREADY a plan underway, for about two years now, to fix many of these issues as 90% of the things the expert identified were already known to the Association. The Board had been working with two different engineering companies to design a series of range improvements that would raise the berms, remove rocks, and erase many of the problems the expert noted. Those plans had been stalled through mismanagement and permitting issues, but bids have already been obtained from some excavating firms to do significant portions of the work.

There are worries now that the changes are going to prove more extensive than our finances will allow -- especially with added environmental controls for sediment and runoff -- but those are all factors the new Board will have to sort out.

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What is wrong with a second opinion from and agency who has range experts?

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Nothing, on the face of it. And NRA may indeed be invited to assist, once the new Board has a sound understanding of what's already been worked out, and what needs to be done. And how asking for that help may affect our Association.

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Once again it might be important to point out that there are several issues involved in this whole kerfuffle.

1) Range improvements needed for a long time, and in the planning/permitting process already.

2) A new set of very restrictive and arbitrary range rules which were inflicted upon the membership in a really underhanded move by certain members of the old Board and Range Rules Committee. Range rules which included wildly odd and pointless restrictions completely unrelated to the deteriorating conditions of the ranges or anything but one guy's personal quirks and prejudices.

3) Attempted justification of the new rules by tying them to the range improvements issues, and "critical" needs to all-of-a-sudden restrict the activities on the ranges.

4) Revolt by the Membership at being saddled with these rules and utter rejection of the half-arsed justifications for them offered by the Board.

5) Scrambling by the Board to cover their butts by calling in an expert from a semi-related field to give his blessing that their new rules were absolutely required for continued safe operation of the ranges.

6) Way, way over-reach by that expert to the point of completely condemning the ranges as universally unsafe for almost any shooting. ("You couldn't pay me to shoot here!")

7) Old Board of Directors backed into a corner now having called in an expert to cover their butts, and finding they have to either refute their own expert's comments, or close down the ranges. Ranges closed.

8) Membership revolt turns into a minor-league riot.

9) Serious and high-quality folks nominated to take over almost all of the Board seats from the old officers who got us into this mess. Old Board of Detectors majority members find that they have an approval rating among the Membership so low they probably couldn't be elected to clean the bathrooms.

10) Most of the old Board resigns their positions.

11) Tomorrow night -- 11/25/14 7:00 PM. Officer elections. Replacements for seven of the Board positions, most of whom appear to have already stepped down.

12) Moving forward: The new Board will have to pick up the pieces and see where we are with contractors and permits, obtain solid quotes for the work, and come up with a few options for how to spend our money that we can present to the Members for a decision ASAP. We'll also need to seat a whole new Range Rules Committee who will have the difficult task of matching up GOOD, reasonable, range rules with whatever conditions we'll be able to produce on each bay, pit, or range. Also some Constitutional and By-Laws changes to try and ensure that the Membership is always and forever in the driver's seat (by fair and free vote) and no Board can try to sneak around and trick or force the Membership.

I'd also like to point out that all of these range issues -- all the grave dangers that the Association has been working on getting fixed for several years now, and that the "expert" pointed out -- are EXACTLY the same conditions prevalent at just about every shooting club in this region.

1) We have some steel plate and hanging gong targets. These might cause ricochets. Some are older and getting a little pock-marked. Some are nearly new and made from 3/4" thick armor (A500 type) steel and show no damage. A bullet or bullet fragment could come off of one of those and hit someone or go somewhere it wasn't intended to.

2) We have some side berms and maybe a couple of rear berms which aren't really as high as they probably should be.

3) We have rocks on the ranges. Some big ones in the rear berms. One range floor has exposed bedrock. Again, ricochets.

4) The other side of the mountain we shoot at is a heavily populated area which includes the Rt. 83 corridor south of Harrisburg. A round launched OVER the mountain would be bad.

I shoot fairly regularly at a collection of maybe 20 rifle and pistol clubs around the PA and MD area. EVERY SINGLE ONE of them has these exact same potential problems, or parallels to them, to some degree or another.

Just about every one of us who's spent much time shooting on outdoor ranges has stopped to think about the potential risks of these activities and has determined that we accept those risks. We might get hit with a bullet fragment or ricochet. (If you've been shooting long, you already have caught more than a few I'm sure.) We wear our safety glasses and take our chances. We know that if we press the trigger with the muzzle elevated, we'll shoot a round that will leave the range. We take that seriously and DON'T do that.

This current fever pitch of worry that has overtaken WSSA's old Board is completely beyond any level of hand-wringing I've ever heard of among shooters. And it is all artificial. All drummed up as an overblown justification for the necessity of passing these bad range rules.

I sat across the room from one of these old Board members last week as he literally trotted out the "think of the CHILDREN!" line -- claiming that we had to keep the temporary ban on steel targets in place because WHAT IF SOMEONE BROUGHT THEIR CHILD TO THE RANGE as surely they'd be hit by a ricochet and WHO would EXPOSE their CHILD to that?!?

I couldn't believe it. This fellow has been shooting for probably 45 years, deeply involved in practical/action shooting for at least 30 of those, and has put more rounds on steel plates and poppers than you could imagine. And yet in the vehemence of his defense of what they tried to do, he's now like the repentant prodigal son preaching the horrors of his old evil ways.

Makes your head swim...

Thanks for the background history and clarification of the issues.

I attended the meeting tuesday night. I learned a lot. What I got from it is that the ranges are being closed due to the concern of the now former president being concerned about liability. They were not forced to close them. it was a choice made by the president.

I say hang signs that say shoot at your own risk and let people shoot until it's fixed. that way people can still shoot.

otherwise they stand to loose a lot of their membership which would be a problem.

I will be curious to see how the new leaders will address this situation.

Ironically, if you stop just as you're entering the gate and read the large white sign on the right, that's exactly what it DOES say. And has for years.

(Not that any such policy or even a waver signed by each member would relieve the Association of liabilities for unsafe conditions.)

We will indeed have to balance safety, liability, and service to the members. We don't want to lose anyone, and every one of us wants to get back to shooting as much as you do.

In discussing this with some of my fellow (new) Board members I think the working plan is to figure out how we can most quickly get some more of the ranges opened up. I doubt that's going to be as simple as just declaring them open. But the work to open up some is a lot less costly than the work needed to make the rifle range safe. At any rate there are going to be some hard decisions to make.

Please stay involved and add your voice to the discussions as we move forward!

Loved that club!

Mike, I want my membership renewal back! My family got screwed!