7.62x39,5.45x39,.223

First an itching question I have, what is the difference between 5.56x39 and .223 and 7.62x39 and .308?

That being said, I want an AK. I would prefer an AK74 in 5.45 or .223 but would take an ak47 in 7.62. Money is the deciding factor now and will decide this issue for me. I have been looking around and the prices for this ammo doesnt seem to be that different, or typical for that matter. They vary in price greatly.

I want 5.45 but if its not significantly cheaper than .223 than I would just get .223 because it is domestically produced in the usa. I see 1080 5.45 rounds as mil surp but i think they are corrosive. New rounds seem to be on par with .223.

What is the true deal here? 5.45 is no where near as plentiful as .223 online. Looking at ammunitiontogo.com

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Originally Posted by jh664322

What is the true deal here? 5.45 is no where near as plentiful as .223 online. Looking at ammunitiontogo.com

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I'm no AK person so i'll stick with the ammunition part. First the 5.45x39 is a awesome cartridge, and i would not hesitate to own a rifle in that caliber. Second, there is NO domestically produced 5.45x39. You would be stuck with imported ammunition which is prone to supply disruptions. I've seen Golden Tiger brand 5.45 but its pricy, the Bulgarian WASP is highly regarded but it IS corrosive. (Corrosive or not the AK wont care, just clean it properly...)

If you get a 5.45 go for broke and buy as much ammo as you can afford. (and then some more!) God only knows what the ammo import industry is gonna face post 2008... :(

$$$ being a factor, a .308 (7.62 NATO) is out. About the cheapest .308 you're going to find is a CETME, but you looking at about $600-$700. Ammo is running at minimum $0.50 per round unless you roll your own.


An AK should run you no more than $400 out the door.

As for caliber..... 7.62x39!!!!!!!!! Metal magazines and other accessories for this caliber are plentiful. The AK-74 standard magazine is made of Bakelite. Plastic vs. metal - you guess who wins :p

7.62x39 Wolf (or similar) ammo is inexpensive enough, or you can roll your own if you don't mind searching for your brass 1/4 mile to your right. 5.45x39 is about the same price as 7.62x39 (give or take the cost of lunch). 223, although the ammo is domestically produced, you're more than likely going to pay a bit more for magazines; as this was not one of the "original" calibers for this platform.

.223" or .308" Which hole would you rather have in you (if neither isn't an option)? Shoot the bad guy with the other. :D

goody...my computer is freaking out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jh664322

First an itching question I have, what is the difference between 5.56x39 and .223

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5.56 x 39....... is a mistake. Do you mean 5.56x45? If so, here is the two:

5.56x45 NATO

.223 Remington

Here:

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The primary difference between .223 Remington and 5.56 x 45 mm is that .223 is loaded to lower pressures and velocities compared to 5.56 mm. .223 Remington ammunition can be safely fired in a 5.56 mm chambered gun, but the reverse can be an unsafe combination. The additional pressure created by 5.56 mm ammo will frequently cause over-pressure problems such as difficult extraction, flowing brass, or popped primers, but in extreme cases, could damage or destroy the rifle. Chambers cut to .223 Remington specifications have a shorter leade (throat) area as well as slightly shorter headspace dimensions compared to 5.56 mm "military" chamber specs, which contributes to the pressure issues.

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NOW... ;) since you reference AK's below, did you mean 5.45x39? This is the Soviet Union's response to our change from 7.62x51 to 5.56x45. They thought it would be a good idea to switch their battle cartridge from the 7.62x39 to the new 5.45x39. I believe they wanted the same wounding effects of the 5.56x45 NATO. I remember reading about loud protests from the people at Kalashnikov... but the Politburo gets what it wants.!

5.45x39mm M74
for the
AK-74

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Originally Posted by jh664322

7.62x39 and .308?

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Here's wiki on:
7.62x39
.308 NATO

7.62x39 AKA 7.62 "Soviet" is the primary round fired by the AK-47. It usually is loaded with 120-126 grain bullets (with outliers in both directions for special loads). The "x39" is the length of the case in mm.

.308 NATO....AKA "7.62x51". This is the primary round fired by "older" NATO weapons, including the M-14 (known to civilians as the M-1a), the FN-FAL, and the H&K G3. Still used on our sniper rifles and our MMGs. The "x51" means a case length of 51mm....obviously longer and hence more powerful than the AK's round. The ".308" is the bullet diameter in inches (caliber). It's roughly the same as 7.62mm. It usually is loaded with 147-168 grain bullets (with outliers in both directions for special loads). 7.62x51 and .308 NATO are damned near identical....one is military (7.62x51) and on is civilian (.308 Winchester or NATO).

Owning firearms that fire both...I can tell you that the ballistics and range are better on the 7.62x51...but the recoil is higher. And the ammo is more $pensive for 7.62x51.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jh664322

That being said, I want an AK. I would prefer an AK74 in 5.45 or .223 but would take an ak47 in 7.62. Money is the deciding factor now and will decide this issue for me. I have been looking around and the prices for this ammo doesnt seem to be that different, or typical for that matter. They vary in price greatly.

I want 5.45 but if its not significantly cheaper than .223 than I would just get .223 because it is domestically produced in the usa. I see 1080 5.45 rounds as mil surp but i think they are corrosive. New rounds seem to be on par with .223.

What is the true deal here? 5.45 is no where near as plentiful as .223 online. Looking at ammunitiontogo.com

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5.45 isn't made here. Do a PAFOA search on it. I remember some people had ammo problems with the round - like misfires and splosions? Search for it.

WHEW! that was alot of work....I need a beer! :D
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t...ng/pilzner.jpg

Lol that was my 400th post too!

great info onelungmclung. That was all very helpful.

I may have to just get 7.62x39 though (ak47 rifle). The 74 sounds better to me but the plentiful ammo just isnt happening, 7.62 is at least fairly common. I think I wouldnt go for .223 because of the issue with magazine capacity. Damn. In a perfect world they would sell ak74's at walmart right next to thousands of rounds of 5.45.

And yes, I get the ammo mixed up sometimes with the case length.

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Originally Posted by jh664322

I think I wouldnt go for .223 because of the issue with magazine capacity.

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umm...... HUH?

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Originally Posted by Mtdew

umm...... HUH?

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Woops, meant to say compatibility/modification.

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Originally Posted by jh664322

...The 74 sounds better to me but the plentiful ammo just isnt happening, 7.62 is at least fairly common. ... In a perfect world they would sell ak74's at walmart right next to thousands of rounds of 5.45.

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5.45mmx39 surplus ammunition is readily available if you know where to look. A quick Google search (results) yielded numerous sources.

http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/a...ulgcan_thm.jpg

you seem more than a little confused.. the short answer is the ak is a cheaper gun, and ammo is cheaper.. so if you mean it when u say cost wll decide theres noting left to decide.. online on my cell so i cant get ino the specifics of ammo at the moment

edit: also note you can outfit AK's and AR's with just about all the same toys(lights lasers bipods front grips ect ect

He is trying to say that the 7.62x39 magazines are everywhere. While the 5.45x39 magazines are harder to find, aren't as well made, and not laying around everywhere.

My Opinion. Go with the 7.62x39. Every time I walk into a gun shop. I can find ammo and magazines for this weapon. They are everywhere. Then just start buying them up and get yourself a nice supply of ammo and magazines for the day the Zombies show up. ;)

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Originally Posted by PA Rifleman

5.45mmx39 surplus ammunition is readily available if you know where to look. A quick Google search (results) yielded numerous sources.

http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/a...ulgcan_thm.jpg

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The key here is "If you know where to look". You don't have to look for 7.62x39. It just seems to be everywhere.

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Originally Posted by jh664322

First an itching question I have, what is the difference between 5.56x39 and .223 and 7.62x39 and .308?
...

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5.56x45 & .223 Remington:
http://www.fulton-armory.com/556-vs-223-Chambers.htm
http://www.winchester.com/lawenforce...spx?storyid=11
http://www.thegunzone.com/556faq.html
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=201565
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/i...p/t-46621.html

(more)


7.62x51 & .308 Winchester:
http://www.fulton-armory.com/308.htm
http://www.6mmbr.com/308Win.html
http://www.fo.com/cr-files/cr-308.htm
http://www.smellysmleshooters.net/ammopressure.htm
http://www3.sympatico.ca/shooters/7_62vs308.htm
http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting...nato/index.asp
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-935.html

(more)

7.62x51 v. 7.62x39 >link<

Wound cavity images:
5.45x39 M74
7.62x39 M43
7.62x51 M80
.308 Win soft point
.223 Remington 50gr JSP
5.56 x 45 M193
5.56 x 45 M855

(source)

How does one know if you are getting m43 or m67 ammo in 7.62x39? Has m43 been phased out? Also is hollow point a good or bad idea. Without starting a new thread, where have people been able to find 7.62x39 non-corrosive ammo for between 10 and 15 cents a round?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jh664322

How does one know if you are getting m43 or m67 ammo in 7.62x39? Has m43 been phased out? Also is hollow point a good or bad idea. Without starting a new thread, where have people been able to find 7.62x39 non-corrosive ammo for between 10 and 15 cents a round?

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Build a Time machine.
Check the classifieds for a pre-owned DeLorean and I'll see if I still have that Flux Capacitor in my workshop.

Seriously, that's about what it was last year. By buying 7.62x39 by the case, I was able to get it for $3.33 a box (20rds./box)
At the time, Wolf was about that price at Dunham's when they had a really good sale.(Reg. price was about $4.99/box)but you still had to pay tax.

I just bought a few boxes of it at Dunham's and it's reg price is now $6.99.

Buying online, and buying by the case is the best bet for low prices.


Try here.
http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/copy_of_7_62x39.html
I couldn't find anyone cheaper when I ordered. (that may no longer hold true, but I thought I'd try and help.)
The case prices are $10 more than they were last year, by the way.

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Originally Posted by Emptymag

Build a Time machine.
Check the classifieds for a pre-owned DeLorean and I'll see if I still have that Flux Capacitor in my workshop.

Seriously, that's about what it was last year. By buying 7.62x39 by the case, I was able to get it for $3.33 a box (20rds./box)
At the time, Wolf was about that price at Dunham's when they had a really good sale.(Reg. price was about $4.99/box)but you still had to pay tax.

I just bought a few boxes of it at Dunham's and it's reg price is now $6.99.

Buying online, and buying by the case is the best bet for low prices.


Try here.
http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/copy_of_7_62x39.html
I couldn't find anyone cheaper when I ordered. (that may no longer hold true, but I thought I'd try and help.)
The case prices are $10 more than they were last year, by the way.

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Guess I'll look around my house for crap to sell till I get 200 bucks.

You can get a cheap AK for $300 or sometimes less! But you can have much better quality for not much more, a nice AK is still way under the low end of the AR. I love my AK, I got a YUGO M70 underfolder for $485 out the door at the last gun show in harmarville.
When you go to buy one there are few things you should look for. Place it on the ground pointing up (UNLOADED OF COURSE) and look down the barrel at the sights to see if they are canted (BAD). Look at the trigger and see if there are two slots above the trigger (good), if there is only one slot you may wind up getting what is usually refered to as "trigger slap". Put the mag in and shake it to make sure it is not too loose, a little play is ok.
With the AK the cheap ones are REALLY CHEAP, but the more moderatly priced ones can be a much better value.
I like the 7.62x39 round, its what the AK was designed for and its a great round for what a bullet needs to do. The .223 is good for longer range accurate shots, not what the AK is designed for. If you are facing an enemy in the brush, or in a urban setting where you may need to shoot through a wall or a tree or a cinderblock in a rush shooting many rounds use the 7.62, if you think it is more likely that you will be able to pick shots at a distance use the .223, but get an AR for it.
PS. I see you have a Ron Paul icon, there is a gun show coming up in washington county in november, I think, where there should be a Ron Paul table set up thanks to the washington county meetup group there. Take cash and you can make a deal.

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Originally Posted by buckmulligan23

You can get a cheap AK for $300 or sometimes less! But you can have much better quality for not much more, a nice AK is still way under the low end of the AR. I love my AK, I got a YUGO M70 underfolder for $485 out the door at the last gun show in harmarville.
When you go to buy one there are few things you should look for. Place it on the ground pointing up (UNLOADED OF COURSE) and look down the barrel at the sights to see if they are canted (BAD). Look at the trigger and see if there are two slots above the trigger (good), if there is only one slot you may wind up getting what is usually refered to as "trigger slap". Put the mag in and shake it to make sure it is not too loose, a little play is ok.
With the AK the cheap ones are REALLY CHEAP, but the more moderatly priced ones can be a much better value.
I like the 7.62x39 round, its what the AK was designed for and its a great round for what a bullet needs to do. The .223 is good for longer range accurate shots, not what the AK is designed for. If you are facing an enemy in the brush, or in a urban setting where you may need to shoot through a wall or a tree or a cinderblock in a rush shooting many rounds use the 7.62, if you think it is more likely that you will be able to pick shots at a distance use the .223, but get an AR for it.
PS. I see you have a Ron Paul icon, there is a gun show coming up in washington county in november, I think, where there should be a Ron Paul table set up thanks to the washington county meetup group there. Take cash and you can make a deal.

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Ultimately went with a saiga in 7.62. Do you have a link to that gun show?

5.45mm is readily available and will be for some time to come. Russia and Romania are still using this caliber, and there are billions of rounds of surplus.

5.45mm bakelite and polymer magazines are some of the least expensive and most reliable magazines available.

The 5.45mm round is not "devastating" against human targets, it pretty much acts like a conventional non-fragmenting FMJ.

A good AK will cost you between $500 - $600. You may get a good WASR for $350, but you are rolling the dice.

I will find out the whats and wheres and whens of it, I sent an e-mail just now and will post here when I find out.
Have you shot the saiga yet? I was thinking of getting one in the .308.
I dont know if you are familiar with shooting the 7.62x39 round, if you buy the cheapest crap you can find (wolf) just know that it has that red sealant crap on it that will drip all over the indies of your gun. It is filthy, be prepared to do some CLEANING!!! I dont know how the saiga does, but I know it is based on the ak so it should work great with the dirtiest cheapest crap you stick in it.

go here to see the meetup info, also will tell you the gun show info:
http://ronpaul.meetup.com/723/

Quote:

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Originally Posted by buckmulligan23

I will find out the whats and wheres and whens of it, I sent an e-mail just now and will post here when I find out.
Have you shot the saiga yet? I was thinking of getting one in the .308.
I dont know if you are familiar with shooting the 7.62x39 round, if you buy the cheapest crap you can find (wolf) just know that it has that red sealant crap on it that will drip all over the indies of your gun. It is filthy, be prepared to do some CLEANING!!! I dont know how the saiga does, but I know it is based on the ak so it should work great with the dirtiest cheapest crap you stick in it.

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Thanks for the gun show link, can't make it though as its some 300 miles away. I have not yet taken delivery of the 7.62 saiga yet. So no, have not shot it yet. I will probably post a range report on it. I actually found other ammo cheaper than wolf if you can believe. Check AIM for that.

If your looking for a good ak-47 see atlanticfirearms.com He has some nice russian stuff and a few others. Hes alittle over priced but where else are you going to find completely russian except nfa required parts. Arsenal is pretty good Im told never actually shot one though. However if you want an ak-74 you can get one from ohiorapidfire. Just go to ohiorapidfire.com. I have shot one of them and they are fantastic. Probably the best American made reciever with bulgarian parts kit there is.

As far as ak ammo goes. If your like using brass PRVI PARTIZAN is my fav. Its been relatively cheap (about $350 for 1440rnds). There is also others like Igman, but there has been talk of it being corrosive. I wrote the manufacturer, they claimed it wasnt. So who knows for sure, Id have to find the tests on it.
Golden Tiger is good stuff as well. Wouldnt suggest it in american made barrels, only because its dirty and causes them to rust rather quickly. But the wolf polymer coated steel cased is good too. Shot both 7.62x39 and 5.45x39.5.

LG

Just as a warning there was some PRVI PARTIZAN soft point 7.62x39 on sale I bought. I figured hey brass case on sale, not too much cleanup, cool. But the exposed lead of the soft point catches when it tries to load and jams every 2nd or third round. Now I have to figure out what to do with the other 80 rounds I have left. It may feed better in your saiga then it did in my ak.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by buckmulligan23

Just as a warning there was some PRVI PARTIZAN soft point 7.62x39 on sale I bought. I figured hey brass case on sale, not too much cleanup, cool. But the exposed lead of the soft point catches when it tries to load and jams every 2nd or third round. Now I have to figure out what to do with the other 80 rounds I have left. It may feed better in your saiga then it did in my ak.

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Curious. Do you have a feedramp installed? I'm not sure if thats common on the variants. It did not come on my saiga.

I have shot it finally, btw, and it is a very nice gun. Another guy at the range said it was much smoother than his romanian ak47. Smooth, but not without flaw. The front site is canted and looks like its going to ned some smithing.

I'll take that ammo for cash or trade if thats what you are offering.

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Originally Posted by neinlg

Golden Tiger is good stuff as well. Wouldnt suggest it in american made barrels, only because its dirty and causes them to rust rather quickly.

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I use golden tiger. How would it cause the barrel to rust, its not corrosive? My barrel is Russian and is chromed lined, i believe some american made barrels are as well.

No feed ramp. I would not want to sell it to you and have you have the same problems I had. I am going to try to return it to midway. Also, some of the price on the ammo people have suggested here are very good, but whwn you look at those sites you must remember to then add on shipping, as much as $30 from some. If you go to http://www.ammoman.com/ he has some great price with shipping included in the price. Golden Tiger 1000 rounds for $189 to your door. Just dont buy it all up, I have to wait till I get paid to make an order. Alos, if there is a duhnams by you they have wolf on sale for 3.99 until the end of today only. Good price if you just want to pick up a few boxs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by buckmulligan23

No feed ramp. I would not want to sell it to you and have you have the same problems I had. I am going to try to return it to midway. Also, some of the price on the ammo people have suggested here are very good, but whwn you look at those sites you must remember to then add on shipping, as much as $30 from some. If you go to http://www.ammoman.com/ he has some great price with shipping included in the price. Golden Tiger 1000 rounds for $189 to your door. Just dont buy it all up, I have to wait till I get paid to make an order. Alos, if there is a duhnams by you they have wolf on sale for 3.99 until the end of today only. Good price if you just want to pick up a few boxs.

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I will probably do a feedramp mod, so if they dont take back your ammo I will buy it or trade you for it.

I used aim and got some tiger ammo. Would hate to have an ak without ammo.

How do you do a feedramp mod? What are the advantages?

I use golden tiger. How would it cause the barrel to rust, its not corrosive? My barrel is Russian and is chromed lined, i believe some american made barrels are as well.[/QUOTE]


The barrel that rusted was the M70 Yugo with the american made barrel on it. The russian is chrome line. Never actually had a problem with it. (Most of my gun related problems have been with CAI stuff.) I guess Im just odd, I wont put steel ammo through the russian rifle. I use 100% brass with it. I talked to my dealer about the rusty barrel with the steel stuff. He basically said it was either mildly corrosive or just dirty stuff. Cant say for sure, but I wouldnt suggest using it in a US made barrel unless your going to clean it right after shooting.

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Originally Posted by buckmulligan23

How do you do a feedramp mod? What are the advantages?

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Not sure of the advantages, maybe someone with more ak experience can chime in here.

http://www.dinzagarms.com/index.html That guy makes them for Saigas, and could probably make them for other models. They are also easily bought elswhere and it doesnt look like it would be impossible to make yourself.

neinlg:
I have not heard anything bad about steel case besides its poor quality for reloading. And with the price of brass 7.62 and its availability, I will take steel. Tiger is laquer coated anyhow.


EDIT: I found out a site to make a feedramp out of standard steel piping. Youwould need a dremel or saw, a tap, and a drill. PM me if you want it Buck.

The AK was designed around using steel cases, it one of its most endearing and best features: The fact that it will shoot the cheapest crap you can stuff in it reliably without meticulous cleaning.

I clean after each shoot anyway, maybe I am twisted somehow but I like cleanining my guns.

I have a non-chrome barrel on my yugo, the advantage is better accuracy, or so I am told. My barrel is fine, but I have heard that some people have gotten bad ones where the barrel had issues when they bought them.

I agree with you about the cleaning. I love to clean mine. But sometimes it may take a day or so to get to it depending on my schedule. Still, Ive always believed if something was meant to have a chrome lined barrel then if you rebuild or replace it you should put it back the same. Your right though with out the chrome line its much more accurate. But the M70 is too cheap to buy brass but at the same time you have to wonder what your getting into with cheap ammo and a non-chrome lined barrel.

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Originally Posted by buckmulligan23

I have a non-chrome barrel on my yugo, the advantage is better accuracy, or so I am told.

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Im not sure I understand the logic there. Either way would it be noticeable...my saiga shoots pretty well, albeit with a canted site.

Having had 2 AK's and experience with most of the calibers I would not buy an AK in anything except 7.62X39. The last word is reliability. Sure, all the cartridges work but this one feeds the best.