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Gun Rights are encouraging pushing for dropping PICS for NICS. Dropping PICS will also end registration of sales files with the PSP. NICS will be overseen by the FBI. As I read that, I got this uneasy feeling of a national registration system. I guess that's superfluous when one considers the FBI can query PSP sales files via ATF anyway?
Is NICS a national registration system? Well, it would be similar to the way PA views PICS because not all firearms in PA are in the PSP "sales database" and many states laws allow personal face to face sales of both long arms and handguns, so NICS doesn't get involved in those. The only time NICS is used is by FFLs doing transfers to buyers from their stock or what people order from the internet or when a FTF transaction is done at a FFL. It could be the camels nose under the tent but because some states (thankfully) think more highly about their firearm owning residents it would always be incomplete, just like PA's.
Now that said, if you have a problem with NICS, like being denied when you know there is absolutely nothing on your record that should cause the denial, you can challenge the denial. HOWEVER, that process, right now, takes about 12-18 months to be completed. Yes, 12-18 months.
AFAIK , it works just like PICS , only nation wide. Doesn't the PSP actually use NICS to do your background check , (and charge you for it)?
You're only in it if you've been arrested/convicted of a crime. It's a registry for criminals , not guns.
NICS = NATIONAL Instant Check System, run by the FBI. One of the reference databases used by PICS when an instant check is performed in PA.
Noah
So it's possible the PICS could lead to a false denial more than NICS?Quote:
Originally Posted by Noah_Zark
PICS uses databases internal to the PA law enforcement / criminal justice / mental health care systems in addition to NICS. I can't speak to the possibility / probability of false denials with the PICS system vs the NICS system.Quote:
Originally Posted by abner13
I will say that in 2004 I was denied by PICS while trying to purchase an Enfield rifle. I filed a challenge form, and two weeks thereafter I got a call from the PICS examiner asking for a "letter from you with name, address, SSN, PADL, and stating where you were on such and such a day" and he could get this cleaned up. I asked why, and he went into more detail than he should, stating that "there are like 12 of you in the state with the same combination of first, middle, and last names. One of you was involuntarily committed 'out east' and when that info hits our system it automatically blocks approvals for all of you with the same names. It takes one of us to manually match the prohibited individual with the proper record. That can take from hours to maybe a day or two. Poor timing on your part." I pointed out that I could not be the prohibited individual because he was committed and I was in a gun shop filling out a 4473. The examiner said, "That's right, that's why I just need a simple statement from you." He didn't need it notarized.
I got a reversal letter a week after sending the statement to PICS. Because of my experience, for all its faults, I prefer to have PICS running interference for PA residents with the NICS and FBI for the very reason Xringshooter described above. The same "Oops" that befell me in 2004 would take as much as a year and a half for the Feebs to rectify, when PICS fixed it in about three weeks.
Noah
The part in red is completely false, and is a lie that's used as a sales tool for switching from local PICS to the Federal NICS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bang
Most of us here value freedom and accountability. We have influence over PICS, undiluted by other states like NY and NJ and Massachusetts and California. NICS is going to keep those folks happy, not us.
NICS leads to more successful but unlawful transfers, leaving prohibited persons to face not only the "false written statements" criminal charge, but also the "prohibited person in possession of a firearm" charge.Quote:
Originally Posted by abner13
Say what you will about the mostly-shoe-wearing folks at the PSP, but they are far more effective at being the last gatekeeper in preventing prohibited persons from ending up with guns that are themselves the basis of new criminal charges. That's due to the statutes, and to the reality that a lot of court records aren't accessible within the 3 business days that NICS has to nail down any documents that support a denial. It can easily take a month or more to get some podunk court to track down and send documents of an older court case, to see if it was "domestic" violence, or identify which "Juan Lopez" has that PFA in Reading.
The down side is that PICS ends up delaying more innocent people than NICS. The up side is that you're very unlikely to get a PICS approval and still end up in court facing serious criminal charges for possessing that gun. A NICS approval doesn't immunize you from charges. Further, when the previous regime at PSP decided to play games with AR-15's and receivers, we had the clout to shut that crap down. When NICS plays games, you may as well be a tree for all the clout you have with the FBI or NICS.
It's less of a risk now to let pro-gun, pro-liberty Trump have command of your gun transfers through NICS; but Trump is only there 4 to 8 years. Then it could be Schumer, or Pelosi, or Warren, and you can assume that they'll appoint another hack like Holder or Lynch to infringe your rights using the impersonal bureaucracy. PICS is always going to be under the thumb of the mostly-hunting-friendly PA legislature.
NICS knows nothing of what gun you purchase. It keeps the approval/denial serial number for X number of hours, then it is purged.
PICS on the other hand, they do tend to keep the approval/denial numbers indefinitely. However, federal and state law requires that they purge them as well. PICS also knows nothing of the firearm you purchase. The only details that are transferred during the call is about the purchaser to properly ID them against the criminal/mental databases.
You're confusing NCIC and NICS.Quote:
Originally Posted by abner13
NCIC - National Crime Information Center
NICS - National Insta-Check System
A registry even if de facto does not have to contain information about any particular gun...only information that the person investigated was investigated for receipt of a gun. i.e. Joe Blow probably has a gun (that is called probable cause, unless such information would be considered too stale at time of application for warrant).
To clarify...I do a 4473, FFL makes the call, NICS has date and time record of the contact. Unless that record is purged, it can be used to ascertain that I at minimum have an interest in firearms as documented said date and time. Purging may exist in law, but be superseded by some obscure section of the homeland security act. Bottom line, I don't trust them and as GL has pointed out better than me, we could have the equivalent of a Massachusetts government in short order, and we all know how that goes.
There are degrees of "registration". Knowing that someone may have "guns" just puts them into the 30-60% of Americans who have guns.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bang
Attachment 94902
The real problem is when the government knows exactly WHICH guns you have, because that makes a ban and confiscation possible.
That's why the gun-hating collectivists keep insisting on eliminating all private transfers, and having universal registration, and having mandatory reporting of lost or stolen guns. Because they don't have any interest in stopping crimes (which those things don't do), they want total control over all guns, they anticipate repeating the Nazi door-to-door confiscations, with lists in hand, and the ability to jail anyone who can't account for all the guns on the list.
The Left plays the long game, and they have no problem with lying to the American people about the facts and about their ultimate goals. I don't trust any government with registration of what I read, what guns I own, or a list of every place I go on a daily basis. They've demonstrated that they are unwilling to safeguard my info, and they are willing if not actually eager to use all power to promote their agenda, without regard for the laws or the Constitution.
That being said, as long as we have a mandatory background check on any transfers, I prefer local control over centralized Washington-based control. That's just common sense.
GL:Good point. Maybe they could shortcut to the media. They seem adept at identifying "weapons of choice".Quote:
The real problem is when the government knows exactly WHICH guns you have, because that makes a ban and confiscation possible
"Is NICS a national registration system?"
As for sales handled through FFL's, anytime a name is assigned to a firearm's serial number and information is saved and maintained, it's a registry by any other name. Stolen guns go into a national database. If you reported a gun stolen 20 years ago and it is recovered today, they will contact the person from some known database to return it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GunLawyer001
Well said.
And who knows if the PSP does indeed share the ROS database with the Feds? I certainly would not be surprised if they did.Quote:
Originally Posted by tlnzz1
I can see no reason for them not to. Intelligence shared between LE entities is normal.
From an email today from NRA-ILA:
This week, two important bills, House Bill 763 and Senate Bill 224, have been introduced in the Pennsylvania General Assembly. Sponsored by state Representative Jason Ortitay (R-46) and state Senator Camera Bartolotta (R-46), these bills would eliminate the current Pennsylvania Instant Check System (PICS), as well as the current handgun record of sale, and replace it with the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS), which is administered by the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI). It is imperative that you contact your state legislators and urge them to support HB 763 and SB 224! Please click the “Take Action” button to contact your legislators.
Under the NICS system, licensed dealers contact the FBI, via a toll-free telephone number to run a check of computerized criminal history and mental health records at the point of sale for firearm purchases. Upon confirmation that the purchaser has no prohibiting criminal or mental health record, the purchaser may take possession of the firearm.
Since its inception in 1998, PICS has cost Pennsylvania tax payers nearly 120 million dollars to conduct background checks on gun purchasers in the Keystone State. By replacing the system with NICS, taxpayers in Pennsylvania would be relieved of a burdensome, duplicative process and would be able to take advantage of the more efficient federal system. Currently, 30 states, including the District of Columbia, solely utilize the NICS system for all firearm background checks.
Once again, please click the “Take Action” button above to contact your state Senator and state Representative in support of HB 763 and SB 224.
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My thoughts: How do the citizens of those 30 states feel about the NICS system? NICS would relieve PA taxpayers of $$$$ burden of PICS? Uh, don't they pay federal taxes? And if more pile onto NICS, won't that additional burden require increased funding? Guess who pays that. NICS is a more efficient system? I don't see them giving any side-by-sides, so I don't know if or how that's accurate. It's a little alarming to read that the FBI has mental health records or access. Does that mean more detailed than having been 302'd?
I'd bet the NICS is sufficiently over-funded right now , and has more capacity than PICS. PICS already uses NICS , so we'd just be eliminating the middle-man so to speak.
I have no problem with eliminating the "Record of Sale" form and database. But that has nothing to do with abandoning PICS and submitting to the central authority for NICS. Eliminating the ROS is good, but constantly linking it to the spam of "replacing PICS with NICS" is deceptive. They're separate statutes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bang
No fan of liberty and freedom should be willing to give up local control and hand it over to the already-powerful federal government in Washington.
Every time that NICS gets it wrong, you're either going to have a wrongful approval (or 3 day delay with no determination) of a prohibited person with a gun and a paper trail to him (making criminal prosecution easy), or you're going to have to challenge a wrongful denial through the Federal court system. This is great for lawyers who will make a lot more money making a Federal case of everything, but not so great for the many folks who might have had $2K to fix a PICS issue but not $10K to fix a NICS issue.
I will point out that most Pennsylvania prohibitors can be fixed under existing Pennsylvania law, whether it's a 302 or a criminal conviction. There IS NO PATH TO RELIEF under Federal law, an involuntary commitment is forever so far as the Feds are concerned.
The old Soviet Union centralized everything in Moscow. We should have learned from their failure.
Sometimes people painfully regret getting what they asked for.