-
Promised Land State park OC confusion !
Ill try and keep a long story short.
I was OC in Promised Land State park sitting on a park bench. This Bench is on our leased land by our Cabin. While sitting on the bench a lady stopped in the road and we began to talk. I walked over to her in the road. While talking to her, the park Ranger, specifically the Chief stopped. I said good bye to the Lady and she continued down the road.
The Ranger and I then begin to talk. While talking he says (this is not word for word) You know that you cant OC in the park? I then asked what about on my leased land. He said no, not on the leased land. I then asked about the preemption law. He then made a reference to Federal Parks. This confused me even more because I know OC is legal in Gettysburg. I said ok Ill cover up! He then drove off.
I talk to the rangers on a regular basis, almost every time I stop at my Cabin. Earlier in the day I spoke to two Rangers riding together. Neither said anything about the OC. This was also in front of my Cabin.
So I did some reading and didn't want to NECRO a 2011 thread on PA State parks, that may or may not have current valid information.
I am confused as to who is right me or the Chief. Is the DCNR not a Commonwealth agency? Can the DCNR regulate the Legal activity of OC?
(m.3) Construction.--Nothing in this section shall be construed to:
(1) Permit the hunting or harvesting of any wildlife with a firearm or ammunition not otherwise permitted by 34 Pa.C.S. (relating to game).
(2) Authorize any Commonwealth agency to regulate the possession of firearms in any manner inconsistent with the provisions of this title.
(n) Definition.--As used in this section, the term "licensee" means an individual who is licensed to carry a firearm under this section.
(Apr. 17, 1986, P.L.82, No.28, eff. Jan. 1, 1987; Dec. 19, 1988, P.L.1275, No.158, eff. 180 days; June 13, 1995, 1st Sp.Sess., P.L.1024, No.17, eff. 120 days; Nov. 22, 1995, P.L.621, No.66, eff. imd.; Apr. 22, 1997, P.L.73, No.5, eff. 60 days; June 18, 1998, P.L.503, No.70, eff. imd.; Nov. 10, 2005, P.L.335, No.66; Oct. 17, 2008, P.L.1628, No.131, eff. 60 days; June 28, 2011, P.L.48, No.10, eff. 60 days)
-
Re: Promised Land State park OC confusion !
Not necroing the 2011 thread is a good idea, but a link might be helpful.
-
Re: Promised Land State park OC confusion !
Long story short - Yes, state law now says that Commonwealth agencies cannot regulate firearms. However, 17 Pa. Code § 11.215 has yet to be amended to reflect the change in state law. So, OCing in a state park is still illegal, but isn't, and a park ranger can still cite you, even though he can't.
Second, don't confuse the rules of a federal park (Gettysburg) with a state park (Promised Land). Two different government entities, two different laws.
-
Re: Promised Land State park OC confusion !
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Statkowski
Long story short - Yes, state law now says that Commonwealth agencies cannot regulate firearms. However, 17 Pa. Code § 11.215 has yet to be amended to reflect the change in state law. So, OCing in a state park is still illegal, but isn't, and a park ranger can still cite you, even though he can't.
Second, don't confuse the rules of a federal park (Gettysburg) with a state park (Promised Land). Two different government entities, two different laws.
i
To be fair to the OP, he did not confuse Commonweath & Federal law. The ranger did.
-
Re: Promised Land State park OC confusion !
The state after passing the preemption law created several conflicts with other state laws. The State Parks law on OC is just one. There are also several other state agencies that still believe they have the legal right to regulate firearms on their grounds, buildings, campuses, or other state property. Unfortunately it will remain a gray area as to whether they can do it legally or not until someone gets arrested. Then the courts will decide whether preemption truly applies to the conflicting laws.
I personally do not want to be a test case, and I do not trust the court to do the right thing. Their decision in McKown shows me how they would probably rule and it isn't in my favor...
-
Re: Promised Land State park OC confusion !
Sorry I did not get back sooner, its been a long day. I don't want to be a test case either. The next time I return to Promised land Ill try and find the Chief and ask him to cite the violation.
-
Re: Promised Land State park OC confusion !
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Daycrawler
Sorry I did not get back sooner, its been a long day. I don't want to be a test case either. The next time I return to Promised land Ill try and find the Chief and ask him to cite the violation.
I would expect he will point to this. http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/cs/group...t/d_001192.pdf
Page 14
Section 11.215(4).
-
Re: Promised Land State park OC confusion !
Recollection here because I'm too lazy to pull up federal regs on an i-phone, but federal law at national parks is carry at will per state or local laws, except inside federal buildings, where firearms are prohibited For example, at Gettysburg or the liberty bell, you can OC per PA regs all day on the grass and sidewalks, but don't go inside to use their bathrooms!
I wouldn't want to be a test case either. Leave it to the really good well funded lawyers to set the stage first, then let the chosen someone get arrested, and go through the process. Anything else would most likely result in a convoluted mess, with you out a pile of cash and possibly your 2A rights!
-
Re: Promised Land State park OC confusion !
Just carry concealed and end it that simple
-
Re: Promised Land State park OC confusion !
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cardonasharp
Just carry concealed and end it that simple
Easier said than done when your doing outside work. Raking leaves, cutting wood and the list goes on. When your gun starts rubbing your side, it can get sore quick. Even when I did cover up my shirt would ride up.
-
Re: Promised Land State park OC confusion !
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cardonasharp
Just carry concealed and end it that simple
Why? Just Why? Can we stop asking questions now, because you have just given us the end all be all.
-
Re: Promised Land State park OC confusion !
That's bullcrap to have to deal with that. Bill want to meet me and walk thru the park OC. State Preemption is state Preemption. Is there some I am missing. Regardless of State Park, State Gamelands, State Forest the only one that's a problem is State Park? It's a F'ing "State" Park and there is State Preemption. This ruined my night.
-
Re: Promised Land State park OC confusion !
Quote:
Originally Posted by
poconojoe
That's bullcrap to have to deal with that. Bill want to meet me and walk thru the park OC. State Preemption is state Preemption. Is there some I am missing. Regardless of State Park, State Gamelands, State Forest the only one that's a problem is State Park? It's a F'ing "State" Park and there is State Preemption. This ruined my night.
Don't let it work you up. Ill try and get together with the Rangers and show them the premtion law.
-
Re: Promised Land State park OC confusion !
I will meet you there if you want, just let me know. I am 20 min from Promised Land.
-
Re: Promised Land State park OC confusion !
Quote:
Originally Posted by
poconojoe
I will meet you there if you want, just let me know. I am 20 min from Promised Land.
OK Thanks!
-
Re: Promised Land State park OC confusion !
I do quite a bit of camping in PA State Parks every year, and it's been my understanding that OC IS allowed, but NOT in the campground specifically. I agree the preemption statutes appear to be on the side of the citizens here, but not sure why this is allowed to stand. I carry concealed 98 percent of the time, but I have OCed around the house, working in the yard, getting the mail, out of simple convenience and comfort. This crap should not be accepted if they have no basis for pushing it. In the summer while hiking and biking, OC would be so much more comfortable and practical. My kids laugh at my "SGS" as I call it. Sweaty Gun Syndrome!
-
Re: Promised Land State park OC confusion !
What does state preemption have to do with this? They are a state organization. Preemption is against counties and municipalities.
§6120. Limitation on the Regulation of Firearms and Ammunition.
(a) General rule. No county, municipality or township may in any manner regulate the lawful ownership, possession, transfer or transportation of firearms, ammunition or ammunition components when carried or transported for purposes not prohibited by the laws of this commonwealth.
-
Re: Promised Land State park OC confusion !
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ungawa
What does state preemption have to do with this? They are a state organization. Preemption is against counties and municipalities.
§6120. Limitation on the Regulation of Firearms and Ammunition.
(a) General rule. No county, municipality or township may in any manner regulate the lawful ownership, possession, transfer or transportation of firearms, ammunition or ammunition components when carried or transported for purposes not prohibited by the laws of this commonwealth.
That's not the what the OP is referring to. He quoted from the state agency preemption statute passed a couple years ago. It's codified as 18 Pa.C.S. § 6109 (m.3) (2):
Quote:
(m.3) Construction.--Nothing in this section shall be construed to:
(1) Permit the hunting or harvesting of any wildlife with a firearm or ammunition not otherwise permitted by 34 Pa.C.S. (relating to game).
(2) Authorize any Commonwealth agency to regulate the possession of firearms in any manner inconsistent with the provisions of this title.
-
Re: Promised Land State park OC confusion !
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twency
That's not the what the OP is referring to. He quoted from the state agency preemption statute passed a couple years ago. It's codified as
18 Pa.C.S. § 6109 (m.3) (2):
Thank you, I am unable to rep.
-
Re: Promised Land State park OC confusion !
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cardonasharp
Just carry concealed and end it that simple
The above is my vote.
-
Re: Promised Land State park OC confusion !
Greetings,
We had this same discussion last year or the year before regarding Nocamixon State Park in Bucks. I had been under the impression that due to State preemption, we were good to carry as we each see fit. In the warmer months, I'd most always OC and never had an issue, but it seems another member got into it with a ranger who would not back down on the no OC standpoint. One of the group was going to be writing to the State Parks division (or whatever it's called ) asking for clarification, but I don't know if anything came of that. The discussion never came to a firm conclusion one way or the other, so I just decided (not wanting to be a test case either), to CC in the various State Parks. If I can make some spare time, I'll follow up with some contacts and see what the official policy is. Getting to be warm OC weather!
Regards, Jim
-
Re: Promised Land State park OC confusion !
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pa350z
The above is my vote.
Well as long as I have my Vote and it's allowed by Law I'll OC. We who still care about our rights don't want to see them taken away any further!
BTW My GGG Grand Pappy might have know your GGG Grand Pappy. H. Hoffman Private CO. H.68th REGT. PA. VOL. ;)
-
Re: Promised Land State park OC confusion !
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Daycrawler
Easier said than done when your doing outside work. Raking leaves, cutting wood and the list goes on. When your gun starts rubbing your side, it can get sore quick. Even when I did cover up my shirt would ride up.
Wear a longer shirt...
-
Re: Promised Land State park OC confusion !
If anyone needs me I'll be in the CC section advising people to OC.
-
Re: Promised Land State park OC confusion !
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cardonasharp
Just carry concealed and end it that simple
Just don't carry at all and end it that simple
:rolleyes:
-
Re: Promised Land State park OC confusion !
This park sure doesn't sound like the "Promised Land" to me.
-
Re: Promised Land State park OC confusion !
I walked in the area of the beach OC a week ago over go the lake store and back. No issues. A ranger passed us twice near the parking area.
-
Re: Promised Land State park OC confusion !
I'm going to start carrying my G19 in a nano gun vault in a fanny pack for all those that say "just carry concealed" and offer pointers on concealing properly.
One slot above a fudd
-
Re: Promised Land State park OC confusion !
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bill67
I walked in the area of the beach OC a week ago over go the lake store and back. No issues. A ranger passed us twice near the parking area.
That's good to hear!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mitch10mm
I'm going to start carrying my G19 in a nano gun vault in a fanny pack for all those that say "just carry concealed" and offer pointers on concealing properly.
One slot above a fudd
Ill look that up it sounds interesting.
-
Re: Promised Land State park OC confusion !
Greetings,
Still trying to get to the bottom of this. If I recall correctly, one of the alleged "laws" against OC had to do with a subsection of PA GAME LAW. I had the opportunity to speak to the local PA Game Conservation Officer and discuss this. Her reply was that the State preemption absolutely prohibited GAME officers from interfering with ANY type of carry in State Parks. She suggested that I discuss with the Parks Dept, which I intend to do soon as I can.
So, to anyone who has had an adverse encounter, do you know if it was a GAME or PARK ranger? Please let me know so I can have more accurate info for the discussion. Thanks!
Regards, Jim
-
Re: Promised Land State park OC confusion !
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jim-analog
Greetings,
Still trying to get to the bottom of this. If I recall correctly, one of the alleged "laws" against OC had to do with a subsection of PA GAME LAW. I had the opportunity to speak to the local PA Game Conservation Officer and discuss this. Her reply was that the State preemption absolutely prohibited GAME officers from interfering with ANY type of carry in State Parks. She suggested that I discuss with the Parks Dept, which I intend to do soon as I can.
So, to anyone who has had an adverse encounter, do you know if it was a GAME or PARK ranger? Please let me know so I can have more accurate info for the discussion. Thanks!
Regards, Jim
It wasn't connected with the Game Laws. It was connected to DNCR Regulations that originally didn't allow firearms in State Parks, except for hunting or if kept in the vehicles. PA law changed thereafter allowing licensees to carry under the pretenses of 18.61.6109, which covers carrying concealed with a license. ...which then left a gray area, carrying openly.
But there again later, PA law added another portion of law that enforced preemption against state agencies. ....which the DNCR has yet to fully respect. ....which in turn leads us to the topic at hand - whether or not the M.2 paragraph of 18.61.6109 applies to the DNCR's regulations in State Parks.
-
Re: Promised Land State park OC confusion !
The Preemption, isn't that what the Gambling Commission recently got a bitch slap about because their regulations prohibited firearms in gambling casinos...
No it is up to the property owner because under preemption the PA Gambling Commission has nothing to say about firearms.
-
Re: Promised Land State park OC confusion !
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Parrisk
The Preemption, isn't that what the Gambling Commission recently got a bitch slap about because their regulations prohibited firearms in gambling casinos...
No it is up to the property owner because under preemption the PA Gambling Commission has nothing to say about firearms.
Most likely that is what happened. The Preemption law is still not honored by all law enforcement and its employers.
-
Re: Promised Land State park OC confusion !
Greetings,
Knight, thanks much for the info. I'll use this to follow up with the Parks Dept. locally and post any info that I get. If I make some progress, perhaps others in different areas could pursue a similar strategy. Much appreciate the specific law cites.
Regards, Jim
Quote:
Originally Posted by
knight0334
It wasn't connected with the Game Laws. It was connected to DNCR Regulations that originally didn't allow firearms in State Parks, except for hunting or if kept in the vehicles. PA law changed thereafter allowing licensees to carry under the pretenses of 18.61.6109,............. whether or not the M.2 paragraph of 18.61.6109 applies to the DNCR's regulations in State Parks.
-
Re: Promised Land State park OC confusion !
Greetings,
Knight, to follow up, I just went through all the documents you cited. I *think* I discovered our resolution to non-recognition of OC as applied to within State Parks. If you (or any others with better understanding of how PA statutes are written) could please take a look at this next section of 18.61.6109
m.3 states:
Construction.--Nothing in this section shall be construed to:
then section -2 says:
(2) Authorize any Commonwealth agency to regulate the possession of firearms in any manner inconsistent with the provisions of this title.
So, would that not show intent of preemption for OC under the circumstances we're discussing? Thanks much for any further clarifications!
Regards, Jim
-
Re: Promised Land State park OC confusion !
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jim-analog
Greetings,
Knight, to follow up, I just went through all the documents you cited. I *think* I discovered our resolution to non-recognition of OC as applied to within State Parks. If you (or any others with better understanding of how PA statutes are written) could please take a look at this next section of 18.61.6109
m.3 states:
Construction.--Nothing in this section shall be construed to:
then section -2 says:
(2) Authorize any Commonwealth agency to regulate the possession of firearms in any manner inconsistent with the provisions of this title.
So, would that not show intent of preemption for OC under the circumstances we're discussing? Thanks much for any further clarifications!
Regards, Jim
"We" have already thrown that argument at them. ....they refuse to acknowledge.
That is the problem. They, DNCR, State Parks, etc, refuse to acknowledge the provision above.
This will require a Superior or Supreme Court ruling. ...which neither court is friendly to our cause at the moment.
-
Re: Promised Land State park OC confusion !
Quote:
Originally Posted by
knight0334
"We" have already thrown that argument at them. ....they refuse to acknowledge.
That is the problem. They, DNCR, State Parks, etc, refuse to acknowledge the provision above.
This will require a Superior or Supreme Court ruling. ...which neither court is friendly to our cause at the moment.
All accurate, but it also seems that they (DCNR) aren't really excited about enforcing it and issuing a citation, either.
-
Re: Promised Land State park OC confusion !
Quote:
Originally Posted by
gnbrotz
All accurate, but it also seems that they (DCNR) aren't really excited about enforcing it and issuing a citation, either.
No, they'd rather harass people and try to make things difficult than give anyone standing to challenge them. Without someone getting cited, there's no way for the law to get changed and they know it.
-
Re: Promised Land State park OC confusion !
Greetings,
Darn, seems the perfect situation that HB-2011/ Act 192 would have allowed standing for. Have to get that passed as a stand alone.
Regards, Jim
'
Quote:
Originally Posted by
R L Suehr
No, they'd rather harass people and try to make things difficult than give anyone standing to challenge them. Without someone getting cited, there's no way for the law to get changed and they know it.
-
Re: Promised Land State park OC confusion !
Well guys I printed out all the information I needed for this weekend. Anyhow when I got to the cabin the park it was hopping all weekend. It just wasn't good timing to sit down with the park Ranger's. Ill be going up again soon. Hopefully the park will not be so busy.
On a side note a Monster Bear came into our cabin tonight while eating dinner. My Brother made ribs on the grill. That was all it took for the bear to walk on in. When he got close to the grill I started banging a pot lid. He backed off after that. We estimated him between 450 to 500 pounds. He had a leg injury to the right front leg. hopefully he will recover from the leg injury. He appeared healthy and had a very nice coat.