defensive situations - possible reactions/responses?

[msquaredserver]

so i haven't seen anything specifically related to this, so i figured i'd ask. i just got my first gun (taurus pt111 mil pro 9mm - love the little bastard) and after about 300 rounds through, i feel comfortable enough that i would be useful in a defensive situation, so i have been carrying concealed for the past week or so. i have 700 rounds through it, and at 15 yards i can make nice groupings of about 6-8" or so. now that i feel i wouldn't accidentally put a round through an unfortunate civilian, i was wondering if we could play a little game of "what would you do" for various situations regarding defensive handgun use. even though i have never been in a situation that would require the use of a gun for defense, i feel that i would be more than willing to do my part in protecting myself or others. my question to you is what you would do in the following situations, and the legality and risks of said situations.

1) carrying concealed in a convenience store. searching for products in the back of the store, possibly the drinks cooler, and it becomes apparent that a customer is attempting to rob the clerk. there is a fair amount of activity in the store, and there is a high probability that you can get the drop on the criminal.

2) offshoot of number 1. the criminal becomes aware that you pose a threat and starts to turn around with the gun swinging towards your direction.

3) home invasion, sleeping in an upstairs room, with gun ready for use after getting the mag into the gun. you hear voices, there could be one or possibly even two people downstairs rummaging through and stealing your possessions.

4) concealed carry walking down the streets of scranton. down an alley, you notice a man robbing a woman. figure... knifepoint or gunpoint, you can respond to either or both situation. there is a high probability that if you begin walking down the alley the criminal will notice you and shift his intentions towards you.

5) concealed carry in a mall. very close by, around the corner you hear very loud gunfire. you peek around the corner, and see a man wildly shooting an assault rifle into the air with customers running haphazardly everywhere. they start to clear away from his location and he starts walking in your direction, still firing his rifle, now aiming at others.

i'm just looking for hypothetical situations, and trying to see what a common response is. there are a lot of ifs in any of these situations, but answers can be as simple as "walk away" or "draw and request he lower his weapon." i feel responsible to protect myself, and i want to see where i would wind up compared to other peoples reactions. personally, i would:

1) observe the situation (call 911 and identify myself as concealed carry and the situation), unholster weapon, and be prepared to act (either by threat of deadly force or actual deadly force, depending on the need) in case the robber is looking for anything more than just a robbery (while trying to stay under radar).
2) unholster, sweep safety, acquire target, and fire (assuming he doesn't stop the guns travel path with a destination of looking down at my face). call 911 immediately after if i haven't already, and identify myself and the situation.
3) remain upstairs, load and chamber gun, sweep safety, and remain ready to attempt to stop them should they enter my room. call 911 as early as possible without alarming the invaders.
4) observe situation from a close a vantage point as possible (while calling 911 if at all possible), thumb break undone, and if the situation comes down to it, attempt to distract attention from the woman. self-defense (charging assailant with a knife) as an absolute last resort is a valid reason for the use of deadly force.
5) guess who i'd call? that's right, 911 to identify myself as carrying concealed and the situation. unholster, sweep safety, and observe surroundings, when there is not a chance in the world i'd hit a civilian, acquire target, and shoot, if my skills would allow for a one-shot-needed situation.

that's just me - i know a lot of people feel that once a gun is drawn it's intention is to fire, but quite often i feel that just the threat of a firearm is enough to stop an average crook, killing isn't necessary.

[Philbert]

Hello,

You have a lot of different scenarios here, and you're also asking different questions. This gives the thread trainwreck potential

For the legal perspective, I'd start by reading Title 18 and searching the forum for specific points that you want to know more about. If you can't find what you want then folks here are always happy to help.

One other thing: this thread probably belongs in the General or Concealed and Open Carry sections. Pistols is for technical discussion of handguns. A mod will probably move it for you.

[synergy]

The consequences of these "situations" will determine whether you spend the rest of your days below ground, in prison, or as a free person.

I wouldn't settle for advice on the internet regarding this stuff. I would take a course on concealed carry which addresses the legal and tactical implications associated with carrying a weapon.

[BUCKMARK]

Tried to give rep points for Synergy...wont let me. Said I was already a card carrying member of the synergy fan club.

Take a training course.

The NRA has a few good ones and TonyF can hook you up with some great training as well.

The first thing you will do is shit your pants...the next thing you will do is revert back to your training. Everything else will be a blurr not worth talking about here.

[msquaredserver]

of course - i completely understand that a public discussion forum is not the same as being educated by a certified course, i was just seeing what people would do.

and if anyone feels that they want to reply, they don't have to necessarily say that i would serve 10 years if i hit a civ in one of the situations, more what common reactions to those very extreme, and hopefully never realized or witnessed, situations.

[LastManOut]

First and foremost, my priority is to protect my life and the lives of my wife and family. By interfering (playing hero) in a situation that does NOT jeopardize my priority is foolish at best.

Simply ask yourself these questions, will the person you are rescuing be willing to support your family, visit you in prison or change your Depends if you are dead, arrested or incapacitated? Second, did the victim have the opportunity to arm and train for self defense just as you did?

The first question being more relevant but my point of the later is more to the mindset of the sheep and I believe more important.

If the intruder is in your home and you have eyeballs on all your loved ones, stay put, stay armed and dial 911. This should address all your scenarios.

Law enforcement and military have contracts with it's personnel for care and comfort of you and your family in the event of your death or injury as well as legal aid. If you feel compelled to serve and protect, I offer my thanks and may God bless you.

[TonyF]

These lethal threat encounters are dynamic and fluid so there is no "one size fits all" approach. Sure, you can generalize to an extent in a discussion forum but it probably won't be of much benefit with respect to an actual encounter.

We can hope for the best and trust our fate to lady luck or we can embark upon a pathway to proficiency.

Here is the generally accepted "pathway".

1. Achieve "unconscious competence" (e.g. gun handling and marksmanship) with our weapon(s) platform of choice.

2. Learn something about tactics through experiences in outdoor and indoor simulators.

3. Begin the process of learning how to apply tactics in FoF training.

Reacting (applying tactics) to a threat in a dynamic lethal threat encounter is more of an art than a science.

Hick's Law will indeed apply unless you commit to proceeding down the "pathway". Think of it in terms of martial arts. After learning and practicing the techniques, in a real fight you will (hopefully) "instinctively react" with the proper technique to counter a punch or a kick. IOW, you won't have the luxury of time to "think through" a course of action. Same goes for a lethal threat encounter.

It's about applying tactics to gain a tactical advantage over your adversary. There are five tactical principles that to the uninitiated will seem abstract and nonsensical until you experience your first tactical (indoor / outdoor) simulator.

[mardo]

Originally Posted by LastManOut

Simply ask yourself these questions, will the person you are rescuing be willing to support your family, visit you in prison or change your Depends if you are dead, arrested or incapacitated? Second, did the victim have the opportunity to arm and train for self defense just as you did?

Agreed.
What ever you decide, please keep in mind that you don't "sweep the safety" until you are going to actually fire your wepon.

[ROCK-IT3]

Regarding your scenario #3:
I just saw a home defense video recieved thru the NRA (not produced by the NRA, just offered through them), and the instuctor (forget his name at the moment) detailed a similar scenario. Completely agrees with your resolution of this situation, except while on the phone w/ 911, loudly proclaim to the invaders that you are in the house (they may think the are burglarizing an empty home), that you are armed and prepared to defend yourself and your family, and demand that they leave now. Make sure the 911 operator hears this. This of course takes place if you have no safe recourse to get yourself and your family out of the house, such as being upstairs with only downstairs exits.

[bgeddes]

The first thing you will do is shit your pants

Yep.

I was in a convienice store, parked in a neighboring lot, when an armed intruder came in to rob the place, he had a shotgun. I was not armed as this ws in NC and there was no legal provsion for that.

What I did was hide, and get the best detailed description I could to assit the LEOs in finding this guy. There was second guy in the car. They caught these guys based on my info. LEOs told me I did exactly as I should.