Expert advice on selecting a handgun

[Carnes]

Originally Posted by NineseveN

Now, we're getting away from how important a factor capacity is in all of this, which was not my intent.

Ahh, okay, that puts things much more clearly in perspective. Like synergy, I kinda got the impression that your argument was that multiple assailants was just a no-win situation, period.

It is definitely hard to assess how important a factor capacity is in the absence of lots of empirical data/research. I think capacity is a multiplier, but like most multipliers it does not have an overwhelming impact on the situation all by itself. (barring extremes, ie. a single shot weapon)

I think the best thing we can do is try to do some force on force experiments. That will likely lead to more questions than answers, but it would be good. I don't think that there is any good argument to suggest that capacity is a bad thing, but it would be interesting to try to quantify exactly how much of a good thing it is. Actually, if it were possible to assign a specific numerical factor to each in a list of variables/multipliers it would probably serve the self defense community very well.

I know I always thought that it would be common sense that if I were in a room with a weapon, waiting for someone to come through the door, I would have an overwhelming advantage. Playing opfor against a well trained team proved that common-sense attitude to be tragically wrong. Initiative is another multiplier that would be interesting to try to assign a specific value to.

[synergy]

Originally Posted by JoeWilliams

Since when does having 6 rounds give me the capacity to deal with only 1 threat? That gives me capacity to deal with 3-6 threats, while moving to cover, before reloading. If you are looking to dump 5-7 rounds in every bad guy (or, given the spray and pray mentality gun fight results with hi-cap handguns are showing, at every bad guy) you aren't going to survive a multiple assailant incident anyway.

Joe, just found this, I'm gonna start a new thread with it...but considering your post above, I wanted to make sure you got a chance to see this.

Palmer had taken 22 hits from Soulis' .40-caliber Glock, 17 of which had hit center mass. Despite the fact that the weapon had been loaded with Ranger SXTs—considered by many to be one of the best man-stoppers available—Palmer lived for more than four minutes after the last shot was fired.

http://www.lawofficer.com/news-and-a...E43EA06A47B949

Thread: http://forum.pafoa.org/pistols-41/52...ill-alive.html

[Suburban]

Well, since you brought up the .40SW ariticle:

"Stop 'Em Cold"
Bob Campbell
Handguns Magazine
February/March 2003
Vol. 17, #1
P. 57

When the vehicle was blue-lighted, the officers asked the man to step from his vehicle. He had a gun under his coat. He was ordered to keep his hands in sight and turn away from the officers.

He replied, "I don't think so," put a lit cigar in his mouth and drew his 9mm pistol. As he fired, his younger brother also fired from the car. Both drew blood. Officer Ron Winegar was wounded. Officer Mark Stall was killed, taken by a 9mm round that entered what was described as a "narrow window of opportunity." The bullet entered his bulletproof vest. Officer Stall died at the scere. The driver was struck by multiple .45 caliber hollowpoints, described in the original report as 25 separate hits. Seven officers fired 52 rounds, achieving well more than 50 percent hit rate. The man took one volley, was able to return fire--even walking completely around the vehicle--then took another volley of fire. About 20 seconds after the first shot, he ceased firing. His brother took seven rounds and collapsed. The gunfight lasted half a minute.

The officers were well trained. The agency conducted monthly training. the issue weapon is a good choice, the Smith and Wesson 4506. The duty load is proven.

[synergy]

Originally Posted by Suburban

Well, since you brought up the .40SW ariticle:

"Stop 'Em Cold"
Bob Campbell
Handguns Magazine
February/March 2003
Vol. 17, #1
P. 57

When the vehicle was blue-lighted, the officers asked the man to step from his vehicle. He had a gun under his coat. He was ordered to keep his hands in sight and turn away from the officers.

He replied, "I don't think so," put a lit cigar in his mouth and drew his 9mm pistol. As he fired, his younger brother also fired from the car. Both drew blood. Officer Ron Winegar was wounded. Officer Mark Stall was killed, taken by a 9mm round that entered what was described as a "narrow window of opportunity." The bullet entered his bulletproof vest. Officer Stall died at the scere. The driver was struck by multiple .45 caliber hollowpoints, described in the original report as 25 separate hits. Seven officers fired 52 rounds, achieving well more than 50 percent hit rate. The man took one volley, was able to return fire--even walking completely around the vehicle--then took another volley of fire. About 20 seconds after the first shot, he ceased firing. His brother took seven rounds and collapsed. The gunfight lasted half a minute.

The officers were well trained. The agency conducted monthly training. the issue weapon is a good choice, the Smith and Wesson 4506. The duty load is proven.

Care to cross reference that in the other thread? Thanks!

[reed44]

I found this article to be very informative but still not sure what hand gun is best suited for me. I just got my carring permit and am looking to buy any suggestions. I have hunted for years used many a riffle but pissols I am at a loss.

[JoeWilliams]

Originally Posted by reed44

I found this article to be very informative but still not sure what hand gun is best suited for me. I just got my carring permit and am looking to buy any suggestions. I have hunted for years used many a riffle but pissols I am at a loss.

Then you need to hook up with some folks here and sample as wide a variety of pistols and revolvers as you possibly can!

[Fudmottin]

I read this thread with great interest. I certainly can't argue against capacity.

Just as a little anecdote, I've often carried a S&W 639 as my "I'm not in the mood for a brick on my side" gun. It's better than nothing. But not much.

Lately I have regained some interest in a gun I bought way back in 1996. A Walther PPK/S in 380 ACP (Interarms manufacture). The Walther has a full three round advantage over the Smith. It also fits into the same width, height, length box. Only the grip makes it as wide as the Smith. The Smith's cylinder is still wider, so its box is actually a bit larger.

The Smith is a somewhat lighter though, having aluminum construction vs the Walther's all steel construction.

I have an HK P7M8 which is really nice. But it seems the value of the thing is skyrocketing. It is also getting heavier with time. Don't ask me how that works. Also the large grip makes it a royal pain to conceal, especially in the summer. One thing I like about the Smith is its discretion.

While I have been planning on replacing the barrel with a PP barrel for NFA stuff, I've been thinking about making the Walther my new regular carry. I gotta put a couple hundred rounds of the good old UMC yellow box through it first for sake of confidence. If it passes that test though, I'm seriously going to be looking for a carry rig.

The 639 has a pocket holster made by Kramer that I use. While it is still a lump, the holster does somewhat disguise the profile. I'm thinking that a pocket holster might work for the PPK/S. Failing that, an IWB holster would be my second choice. Anything that doesn't print. My third choice would be a pancake holster. It would have to be really good though. Sometimes an untucked shirt rides up.

These days, I don't want even an experienced observer to be able to tell that I'm carrying.

If I could justify it, I would be looking at something like a Kahr PM9 or whatever. But I can't. I can only spend a buck once and I've spent several elsewhere.

So if you don't mind, I would like to conflate this thread with how do I choose a holster once I've picked a handgun? I feel that a good carry system is every bit as important as the gun itself. Two properties I want are comfort and good concealment. No fat holsters. Accessibility is also important. Since capacity is clearly helpful, a holster for a couple seven round magazines would also be nice. Quick changing magazines isn't too hard. Although I will admit I've never tried it while under fire.

I know the 380 ACP is even more marginal than the 9x19mm. But I honestly don't know anyone who would volunteer to be shot by one.

[GoldWinger]

Originally Posted by reed44

I found this article to be very informative but still not sure what hand gun is best suited for me.

The best pistol for you is the one that you're willing to carry all the time. Having a Canardly-Shute in .500 Rhino Stopper isn't going to do you any good if it is in your dresser drawer and you're on the streets of Pittsburgh.

If you know that you'll drop your .22 pocket pistol into your pocket everytime that you walk out the door and you know that you'll probably leave the .45 behind when you're going dancing then the .22 is the gun for you.

Always remember the first rule of a gun fight and plan for that.

[Fudmottin]

Have a gun?

[judge15235]

Your article makes a lot of sense. I have been carrying a 9mm Taurus PT908 for years with a 8 shot capacity, and depending on circumstances, a small .22 cal. I'm going to look at larger capacity weapons today.