.38+p vs 9mm

[WhiteWolf]

My opinion, I wouldn't want to shoot a super-hot anything out of a mini-9mm or ultra light snub. They just weren't built to handle it. That said I shoot some really hot 357 out of my sp101 snub, but it was in fact built to take it. As some of my friends have told me, I guess my hand was also build to take it as 5 shots was their limit.

If it was a full size 9mm and a full size 38 (or 357) with super hot loads, I would bet on the 38/357 to have more punch. As you said, its a bigger case. It's also a revolver so in a case split situation it jams in the cylinder and wouldn't stop the gun from firing.

[Chazman321]

Originally Posted by dgg9

One thing training would show you, swiftly, is that standing still and engaging 5 targets = death. Training would also help you automate responses so that you get off the "X" quickly, can deal with a gun that doesn't fire, find out what works and doesn't work tactically, preferably before your actual life is the wager.

You apparently have never been to a USPSA shoot... lol

Sorry, I'm just not a "tacticool" kind of guy... I have no need to carry lasers, 4 extra mags, a flashlight, 2 knives, a BUG, and a full bug out bag and survival kit... I have a gun and 16 rounds of ammo in said gun. If I can't get it done with 16 rounds, then I can't get it done with 60... But, everyone has their preferences... I personally think classroom training is a waste of time unless it's about the laws. I know TonyF and the guys do a great job and they are very knowledgable, and I have the utmost respect for them. However, that doesn't mean I would take their classes.

[dgg9]

Originally Posted by Chazman321

You apparently have never been to a USPSA shoot... lol

Sorry, I'm just not a "tacticool" kind of guy... I have no need to carry lasers, 4 extra mags, a flashlight, 2 knives, a BUG, and a full bug out bag and survival kit... I have a gun and 16 rounds of ammo in said gun. If I can't get it done with 16 rounds, then I can't get it done with 60... But, everyone has their preferences... I personally think classroom training is a waste of time unless it's about the laws. I know TonyF and the guys do a great job and they are very knowledgable, and I have the utmost respect for them. However, that doesn't mean I would take their classes.

This is non sequitur to my point. I am not talking about "classroom" training. Right now, having had no training, you THINK you can stand still and engage 5 hostiles and stay alive. 5 minutes of Force on Force training will completely disabuse you of that misconception.

That has nothing to do with "tacticool" or gear or anything else on your list. It's a simple matter of reality, which is not easily guessed at in advance. There's a lot of things you think you'll be able to do, when standing at the range, which in fact won't work.

[Chazman321]

No, I do however know when persons 2-5 see their buddy with a hole in his forehead and dead before he hits the ground, they will go from hostile to begging. And besides that fact, even though a few criminals do carry guns, I have found out that said guns are often unloaded or have never been shot before. I have talked to local gang members, who are actually the most respectful and personable people I've had the pleasure of talking to, and they have told me the same thing.

One told me he carries a gun merely to scare people and that it's not even loaded. When I asked to see it, he showed me a Taurus PT92 with the security lock still on. I asked him if he ever shot it, he said it didn't work. He didn't even know how to operate his own weapon let alone keep it loaded. Maybe in Philly you need training upon training, but over here, I don't see the need.

I feel if I was with a group of friends and about to rob someone and they shot my friend in the head, my first response would be to run because I don't wanna be dead next, or caught with an illegal firearm. You're giving criminals a little too much credit. I've never seen a drug dealer with a Master's Degree.

To keep this on topic, a PT92 is chambered for 9mm, which is a very good gun and cartridge...

[dgg9]

Originally Posted by Chazman321

No, I do however know when persons 2-5 see their buddy with a hole in his forehead and dead before he hits the ground, they will go from hostile to begging.

You're entitled, I guess, to bet your life on this...premise.

Of course, they may not be looking at their friends' foreheads. They may be too busy drawing down and unloading on you. Or you may find that, behind the power curve, drawing and firing under adrenaline stress, a head shot is not quite so infallible.

One told me he carries a gun merely to scare people and that it's not even loaded

Um, if your theory is that criminals all carry empty guns, then why bother with CCW? You have no real risks out there.

[BradC]

Originally Posted by Chazman321

...

Sorry man, but your post makes no sense at all.

Originally Posted by Chazman321

No, I do however know when persons 2-5 see their buddy with a hole in his forehead and dead before he hits the ground, they will go from hostile to begging.

They will? Said who? How do you know they won't fuck you up for killing one of their boys?

Originally Posted by Chazman321

And besides that fact, even though a few criminals do carry guns, I have found out that said guns are often unloaded or have never been shot before. I have talked to local gang members, who are actually the most respectful and personable people I've had the pleasure of talking to, and they have told me the same thing.

One told me he carries a gun merely to scare people and that it's not even loaded. When I asked to see it, he showed me a Taurus PT92 with the security lock still on. I asked him if he ever shot it, he said it didn't work. He didn't even know how to operate his own weapon let alone keep it loaded. Maybe in Philly you need training upon training, but over here, I don't see the need.

"often unloaded" "one told me".... what about the ones that are loaded? What about the others that didn't tell you?

As pointed out, standing on the line at the range and being able to put holes in paper doesn't mean you are prepared to defend yourself. That's all he was saying.

[MarcS]

Originally Posted by Chazman321

Training is good for some but the age old question is always "What constitutes training"? I've never attended a formal class, but I can shoot 8 targets, 2 rounds a piece center of mass behind barricades in 10.99 seconds. Training is relative. Put a couple thousand rounds through the gun you plan to carry and get tips and pointers from more established shooters, and you'll go far...

Read my signature.

[WhiteWolf]

While I don't agree with Chaz on everything, there is a "oh crap, dude got a gun" reaction that will happen. To help it along I opted for the flame thrower extension on my sp101 and went for full 357. It’s kind of a snub/flash bang approach

My personal experience with gangs is... bravery is in short supply. They are perfectly happy to shoot from a moving car or call you out when they are with their boys and have the numbers. That said when bullets start flying they aren't like an army, it's every man for himself. They are NOT going to stand there and shoot it out. A much more likely scenario is they break and run shooting back at you over their shoulder, like they saw in that movie, and hitting someone walking their baby on the other side of the street.

[dgg9]

Originally Posted by WhiteWolf

My personal experience with gangs is... bravery is in short supply.

Maybe, but don't limit yourself to such a narrow range of scenarios. Bikers, for example, are not lacking in bravery. Further, you could end up in some sort of Stop and Rob holdup scenario or home invasion where everyone is in the same space and fleeing isn't an option. Finally, even in a cowardly gang, there's a time delay between the time they all draw on you and the time they decide to retreat. You need to actually survive long enough to present enough return fire for them to reconsider.

[WhiteWolf]

dgg9:
I agree. I guess my point was they aren't, generally speaking, organized in their reaction. There really is no way to tell what they are going to do once lead starts flying.

And what is wrong with biker gangs?