Mrs. CJ wants a home defense & carry option for herself.

[TonyF]

Originally Posted by WhiteWolf

TonyF:
There is no way, short of a backpack, that a woman is going to CC a 4 inch K frame revolver. I'm trying to keep with reality here. They may shoot them, but they aren't going to carry them.

I know women that carry 1911's. An S&W K frame is approximately the same size and weight. Just because many may not prefer to carry them doesn't mean they can't.

I'm going to simplify my previous statements down to this: What works and makes sense to us men may not work or make sense to women.

You're preaching to the choir. I've seen more than my fair share of women owning firearms purchased at the recommendation of others or what they themselves considered to be practical which in reality are not.

Also, assuming that because someone doesn't make a decision you approve of does not mean they are suffering from a "general lack of knowledge".

It doesn't matter to me what firearm someone chooses. But when I see both women and men and some of the firearms they bring to our classes, it is painfully obvious that they did not select the firearm in question based on an informed decision. That's really all I'm saying. And until they've been around the block a few times (so to speak), they are at risk of purchasing the "wrong tool for the wrong job".

Most women take the advice of the gun store clerk, many of whom do not possess an adequate knowledge base either. Or they take the advice of their father, husband or boyfriend who may also be uninformed.

I absolutely do not approve of a beginning shooter, man or woman, purchasing a small, light revolver or a DA/SA autoloader because I have seen first hand too many times the frustration they wrought.

Maybe they just like different things. Maybe they see things differently.

What we "like" or how we "see things" doesn't necessarily equate to an informed decision. Therein lies the risk of purchasing a firearm that is completely unsuitable.

Let me qualify these statements by stating that I'm referring to someone who is a novice. OTOH, if Pat Rogers, Clint Smith or Giles Stock told me they were going to purchase a scandium frame .44 magnum with a 2 inch barrel I'd know they were making that purchase having considered all the issues based on their considerable knowledge base spanning decades of involvement in the firearms training industry and their personal experiences "in the field".

When I go to some of the large gun stores I see tons of guns. Out of these only a handful are something I might be interested in.

Something that piques our interest vs. something to fulfill a specific need are oftentimes two very different things.

That doesn't mean everyone that purchases a gun not in my group is wrong or even misinformed.

If you knew someone looking for a typical deer rifle who was about to select a Remington 700 in Varmint configuration (26 inch heavy barrel) because it looks like a "sniper rifle" and it's "cool", isn't that person making a mistake? Will they not regret their choice after about the first hour toting such a heavy rifle through the woods?

Want vs. need vs. fulfilling a specific intended role all have different criteria.

In defense of 38 snub for women, a short sp101 with 38, even the +p, has very little kick. It also weighs as much as some women but its still my fav.

I wouldn't consider an SP101 a bad choice. Quite the contrary except that the longer sight radius of the three inch J frame or four inch K frame is of significant advantage to a beginning shooter.

Maybe we are actually in agreement with each other and some how, some way have lost track of each other's point?

[WhiteWolf]

TonyF:
You are right, we do agree

I think I've been over sensitized lately by some of the gun store clerks you mentioned. It's frustrating for me to go to a gun store, look at a gun I want and have some clerk ask me the 20 questions to try and determine if it's what I need. When my wife and I purchased her .25 the clerk told her that I didn't know what I was talking about and that wasn't the gun she wanted. The clerk then tried to talk her into a .38 snub or a 9mm, neither of which was what SHE wanted. We just left and bought it somewhere else and she loves her little gun.

[Michele]

I made a wrong choice for myself with the .38 for my first gun.
I should have gone to the shoot and shot everything, then did some homework and made a decision. Making a decision on a gun because its small or cute or lightweight is just plain stupid. I know first hand I was stupid. Another factor is listening to macho men. Some, not all, carry cannons. They wouldn't suggest a small caliber gun for a woman or something easily managed. That would be oxy moronic. Its a tough decision deciding on a firearm. It has to fit well and preform to the best of your abilities. And of course you handle it safely. If the gun does not fit you properly its almost impossible to be completely safe. I know i'm going to get some static on that comment, but unfortunately its true. IE: I can drive a standard shift car, does that mean I can drive a standard shift truck. It would handle differently wouldn't it. Another example would be, your kid just got his drivers license, not too much highway experience, not too much weather experience, but hes careful and pays attention. Does that mean he's ready for a ride on route 80 in a snowstorm. Of course not, hes driving a deadly weapon.
Same thing with a gun. If you can't handle it, use it safely and responsibly don't buy it.

[Frenchy]

Originally Posted by Michele

Good analogy. I'm starting to think that myself. Speed and accuracy, I don't think i'll ever get there even with tremendous effort.
As far as the hammer, its okay on the range but not in a real life situation. One handed? I don't think that will ever be possible for me.
Sometimes I think I should just carry a whistle too.

DO NOT understimate the power of stress, it works both ways.

Although you might find it harder to shoot at a target under stress, you might also find it easyer. Many police have said that their DA S&W or Rugers where broken when they had a shootout, because after all they did not feel the trigger, did not hear the bang, and certainly did not feel the recoil!

Yet they put 5 or 6 COM in the assailant. When asked what they used for cover, they generally say they dont remember, because they never had a cover. they just stood there and aimed like they where trained. Thati s correct, one of the positive / and negative sides of training is you tend to do what you practiced to do. If there was no cover training, you will not seek cover, if there was no off hand training, you will not shoot off hand, even if this means having no cover to shoot from.

This is not my "opinion' It is registered facts from many LEO who have been questioned after a shooting.

[Michele]

Originally Posted by Frenchy

DO NOT understimate the power of stress, it works both ways.

Although you might find it harder to shoot at a target under stress, you might also find it easyer. Many police have said that their DA S&W or Rugers where broken when they had a shootout, because after all they did not feel the trigger, did not hear the bang, and certainly did not feel the recoil!

Yet they put 5 or 6 COM in the assailant. When asked what they used for cover, they generally say they dont remember, because they never had a cover. they just stood there and aimed like they where trained. Thati s correct, one of the positive / and negative sides of training is you tend to do what you practiced to do. If there was no cover training, you will not seek cover, if there was no off hand training, you will not shoot off hand, even if this means having no cover to shoot from.

This is not my "opinion' It is registered facts from many LEO who have been questioned after a shooting.

I've been thinking long and hard about what you just posted. When under a stressful situation you rely on your conditioning. When something is drilled into you deep you just do it. Theres not thinking about it. Its reflexive.
Most LEOS don't shoot as much as "gun people". I don't know about PA, but in NYC police are only required to go to the range once a year. Just to practice shooting targets. Personally I think just going to the range is not reality for a police officer. They might be required to use their weapon in the most outrageous situations. Just going to the range is not enough. Maybe thats why so many police officers in NYC over shoot. Lack of proper training.

[TonyF]

Originally Posted by Michele

I've been thinking long and hard about what you just posted. When under a stressful situation you rely on your conditioning. When something is drilled into you deep you just do it. Theres not thinking about it. Its reflexive.

This following quote has been bandied about quite often on this board ......

"You won't rise to the occasion, you'll default to your level of training."
--Barret Tilman

Most LEOS don't shoot as much as "gun people". I don't know about PA, but in NYC police are only required to go to the range once a year. Just to practice shooting targets. Personally I think just going to the range is not reality for a police officer. They might be required to use their weapon in the most outrageous situations. Just going to the range is not enough. Maybe thats why so many police officers in NYC over shoot. Lack of proper training.

For the most part LEO's "qualify", they don't train ........... and they miss their target quite often.

[reverserboy]

For the most part LEO's "qualify", they don't train ........... and they miss their target quite often.

And sometimes say crap like.......non LEOs should not be allowed to ccw because we don't have the training we LEOs do.

OR a NYC cop who says PA in scary because of all the civilian ccw but won't discuss the outrageous gun / deadly force debacles pulled off by his brother officers in NYC.

Sorry to go so far off topic.

In defense of 38 snub for women, a short sp101 with 38, even the +p, has very little kick. It also weighs as much as some women but its still my fav.

My short barrel sp101 carries nice in a smartcarry. I'm guessing it would carry OK in a belt holster or small fannypack. I'm going to let a female friend or 2 shoot it & get their opinion.

As far as a .25......Isn't a Keltec .32 the same size?? I know of a few people who love these little guns. Point is that .32s & .380s have gotten so small in the last 10 years I see no need for the .25. From a female view the Keltec is ugly though.

[Frenchy]

Technically, if its a HD she is looking for, then size should not matter if she can hold and fire it, if CC is a concern, woman has the option of the purse that also makes any sized gun available to them. As for CC on the person, you might look at the CZ compact, it is not all that big, and has the full power of a 9mm.

Last group shoot, I had a few ladies try the Security Six, one (SoberBikers wife) loved it so much, I could see the coins bounce in her piggy bank. Yet an other cleared her jerk and flinch habbit with it.
Maybe mrs. CJ needs to go to a group shoot or two, or for that matter, join up with a few shooters on the board who may be local to you for a meet and shoot type day. We dont bite, well not hard anyways and I always take my teeth out first

Originally Posted by CoyoteJack

Sunday afternoon, sunny and pleasant and shopping for the upcoming muzzleloader season and Mrs. CJ tells me she liked to look into a CCW option and home defense piece for herself.


Next up a S&W 642 Airweight. .38spl +P rated alloy and Stainless. DA only on this particular one but I understand you can get models of it with a hammer or a stubby hammer. Well the size and weight felt good to her. I liked the rubber grips better than the slick wood usually found on the Ladysmith lineup. THe lady Smith mod 36 you where looking at can have rubber grips as well One thing about these "small" guns is they pack a kick in them. Even for this 250 pound madman, the Lady Smith in 38+p made me stop shooting one day because of a sore thumb. You might look into a more weighty gun then the lightweights. The extra weight really helps reduce recoil.

She seemed to feel more comfortable with a revolver as well. Probably because they are all she has every really shot with me.
This is nothing new you know. Many people are more confident and better shooters with a wheel gun.

So does anyone have one of these alloy framed .38's? I foresee a lot of standard .38 loads going thru it as she the type to want to practice something important till it is second nature. Once the mindset and motion is ingrained she'll likely setup to +P loads for defense and practice with those as well. As I said before, you might want to try these aluminium frams and titaniums before you buy them, they do really kick back, most people have a bad conception of what CC really is, there are so many ways to conceal for a woman that are all too natural, that a regular sized gun can become an option. Weight is some thing you can overcome with a little practice.

At 15oz. it would seem to be an ideal carry option for her and the +P I feel is enough caliber without making recoil an issue.

My concerns are the visibility of the sights and durability of the alloy frame. Any thoughts? Opinions?

Thanks in advance. Any service type gun where the sights are recesed into the back strap will be harder to view then target type sights. One thing to consider, when you have a snubby .38, you are generally not looking at shooting much further then 10 to 20 feet, and at that distance, the "sight" become more of a decoration then a useful thing.
At 20 feet on a normal sized target with a snubby, you are going to shoot over the sights most times. Very similar to a shotgun.
Remember, this gun is originally made as a BUG (Back up gun) and meant to be shot within the confines of arm lenght and little more. In many instances with woman being aggressed, they dont actually have that much room to work with, its pull out point and shoot. If you can point your finger at some one at 20 feet, you can hit them with a snubby.

The people I have seen with Titaniums in .38 all had laser on them, just point and look where the dot is, when you fire that is where the hole will be!



Coyotejack

[WhiteWolf]

Originally Posted by Frenchy

Technically, if it’s a HD she is looking for, then size should not matter if she can hold and fire it, if CC is a concern, woman has the option of the purse that also makes any sized gun available to them.

I would highly recommend her going to the gun shop with the purse she will be carrying. While a purse can conceal just about anything, the weight becomes a factor. My sp101 doesn't really seem to weigh anything on my belt, in her purse it felt like the was carrying a brick.

Just a thought but have her put the gun in her purse and carry it for a few minutes before deciding. The gun may not weigh all that much, but with the other stuff she is carrying it can be the straw that breaks her back

[Michele]

My personal opinion of a purse. I would never carry a gun in a purse. In a SHTF situation the first thing you would do is drop your purse, no matter how small it is, its cumbersome. It gets in the way. Also, if there was a BG purse snatcher then what? Most women carry their purses over their shoulders, very easy to grab on a bike or just walking by. I carry on my belt. If I didn't carry on my belt, it would be a fanny pak. Women put their big money in their bras, and keep just a little in a wallet or change purse. What about your gun. Shouldn't that be on your person at all times? Most women are not totally conscious of their purses. I've seen women leave their purses in the baby seat of the shopping cart and constantly turn their backs on it to shop. Sometimes women are too trusting. Keep your protection on your person.
Just my nickels worth.