what happened to stand your ground

[ChamberedRound]

To answer the OP's question, in previous legislative years, Bills were written which would have made the following law, if it were passed:

- Castle Doctrine; although already law, the Bills defined this in much more definitive language
- Stand Your Ground
- Immunity from a civil suit when use of force is deemed justifiable

Up until now, all of the proposed legislation has died in committee.

In this year's session, it seems HB641 attempts to do the same: more clearly define the Castle Doctrine, add a Stand Your Ground Provision, and provide civil suit immunity to those who defend themselves or others justifiably. I haven't read this bill in detail, I've only skimmed it. On the surface it seems to be what we as gun owners would want, but I need more time to examine the detailed language of the bill. In addition, I'm going to send an email to Kim Stolfer at the ASCL to see what he has to say about it; if I hear anything from him, I'll post it here.

Here's a link to the bill:
http://www.legis.state.pa.us/CFDOCS/...r=0641&pn=0702

Another concern is that even if this bill is agreeable, it's getting late in the legislative session. This bill was submitted in March and has yet to be considered; it's very possible that again, it might die in committee.

[ChamberedRound]

FYI: I received a response to my email from Kim Stolfer at the ACSL; I'm waiting for his permission to post his reply to the site (I forgot to ask him that in the original email). If I get an OK I'll post the answer here.

[markheck1]

Great! Kim seems like a real stand up guy, need more like him!

[Pierce8468]

[

Beating you with his fists? Depends on what kind of beating you are taking. The law will typically look at the force disparity. If you shoot a 5'4", 120lb guy and you're 6'2" at 240lb, you probably won't get away with a force disparity defense if you use deadly force. Two guys beating the hell out of you? You have a much better case.

Any Stand your Ground law will not make this scenario any different. Stand your Ground laws just eliminate your duty to flee an attack, it doesn't make it easier for you to claim self-defense based on force disparity. When dealing with an attacker, or attackers, who are not armed with deadly weapons, that is going to by nature involve judgment call. You make the judgment, someone else gets ot make the call. It's not fair, but it's a risk that you take when you decide to use deadly force against "unarmed" assailants.[/quote]

Very good point! I know of a guy who getting jumped by 5 guys, using only thier fists, and he fired a round that hit one of his attackers in the stomache. He was arrested and given 5 yrs in prison, because they had no weapon. This type of scenario really depends on what the judge, or jury think.

[ChamberedRound]

OK folks, what follows is the email exchange between myself and Kim Stolfer with regards to HB641. In short, this is a bill which a lot of RKBA supporters had input on (Kim included), and is one that I plan on supporting.

Here's my original email to him:

Hi Kim,

My name is xxxxxxxx, a moderator for the PAFOA website
(ChamberedRound). I'm writing because I am curious about the state of
a "Castle Doctrine / Stand Your Ground / Civil Suit Immunity" bill I
have been keeping an eye on, and was hoping that you could provide
some insight and opinion on this bill.

I had heard about HB641 earlier in the year, and have recently re-read
it. I still need to spend some time to completely understand it, but
on the surface it seems like it's a positive bill. My only concern
with HB641 is that I'm not seeing the usual crop of legislators who
typically support the RKBA as sponsors of this bill; in fact, I'm even
seeing some names typically associated with anti-gun legislation (like
Caltagirone, for example).

In short, my questions are:
- Is the ACSL/FOAC aware of the legislation, and if so, do endorse or
support it?
- Are you aware of the state of this bill? It's been sitting in
committee for awhile, and it starting to look like it might die there
as a similar bill did last year.

Thank you for time and consideration.

Regards,
xxxxxxxx
aka ChamberedRound @ http://www.pafoa.org

and here was Kim's response:

xxxxxxxx,

House bill 641 is one of our flagship bills and it was actually introduced
by Rep. Cappelli for us. The legislation is based on the Florida landmark
legislation with a number of small but essential changes to it that make it
the best bill of its type offered so far in the nation. The legislation has
currently 54 co-sponsors and this is 1/4th of the PA House of
Representatives. In addition there are several members of the House
leadership of both parties on this bill. As for the 'odd' names on this
bill, this occurs some times when certain legislators wish to track the
status of a bill and thus become co-sponsors so they will be kept aware of
any changes to it or efforts to move it.

As for your other questions:
- Is the ACSL/FOAC aware of the legislation, and if so, do endorse or
support it?
***Yes we FULLY support this bill and ask that PA Gun Owners do the same!

- Are you aware of the state of this bill? It's been sitting in committee
for awhile, and it starting to look like it might die there as a similar
bill did last year.
***This bill IS sitting in the Judiciary Committee right now but Rep.
Cappelli has been assured that action will be taken on this in the fall
session that just began.

It is a pleasure to have the opportunity to interact with you and I hope I
have answered your questions adequately.

Best Regards,

Kim Stolfer
ACSL, Legislative Committee, Chairman
www.acslpa.org
FOAC, Chairman
www.foac-pac.org
PSA, Legislative Committee, Vice-Chairman

[WhiteFeather]

I think almost everyone is in agreement that getting a law such as HB 641 on the books would be excellent thing for all gun owners in PA.

All we have to do IF you all want this common sense defense bill to become a law is write letters to all state Reps on judicial committee to urge there support of the castle doctrine, to pry it out of committee for an up or down full house vote.



FYI: This was same bill tied up in committee till the Sept 2006 special house committee of the whole in which it past by over whelming majority on a voice vote. It just did not have enough time to get through the senate process before the end of the session.

[Sebastian]

I agree it would be a great thing, but it's not going to get Fast Eddie's signature.

[ChamberedRound]

Originally Posted by Sebastian

I agree it would be a great thing, but it's not going to get Fast Eddie's signature.

That's no reason not to put it on his desk. Besides, he'll sign the bill if it gets as much support as it did in last year's Committee of the Whole. If not, he could be faced with an embarrassing veto override.

[Sebastian]

Yeah, I'm not saying not to go for it. It just has that hurdle, or perhaps we should say "turd-ule" to overcome in our governor.

[WhiteFeather]

Originally Posted by Sebastian

I agree it would be a great thing, but it's not going to get Fast Eddie's signature.

Don't bet on it, Politics make for strange bed fellows.

In last session on a voice vote where it not a recorded vote or could count against them back in their home districts, it was I believe the final vote was 184 to 19 or something real close to those numbers.

Last year people said that the governor would NOT sign our bill for concealed carry while hunting or any during other title 34 regulation, its now law. This one passed by super majority over the objections of the PGC to make there job easier. We also got others signed into law that people said no way, never going to happen, last session.

People said that the motorcycle drivers would never, ever get the helmet law repealed in PA, over the powerful insurance industry lobby wanting to keep it in place to save money in claims. It wasn't done the first time it took years of educating Reps, activist still got it done, so why can’t gun owners do the same thing?

What you all have to understand politics and how seemly unrelated things affect other issues, especially with this issue.

Lots of even the anti-gunner Reps own firearms for self defense, some are the pro hunter / anti-gun legislators that are for hunting guns, but not military firearms or any other types, others Reps are former police or military that do or don't currently own firearms. There are numerous factors that most of you may have not considered about the political factors on how to enact legislation, where individual gun owners could make a difference by getting personally involved and the EDUCATION of Reps to this issues.

Example of political component; How about all the off duty police officers, and protecting their families or when they double out as armed security guards they have to operate like everyone else in these situations. They all have a great need for this bill added protection along with all the rest of us and give no down side for them, that is why so many other states have adopted this concept before PA. The only real power that seems to always oppose this concept of self defense every where it’s been enacted is the District Attorney associations because it makes their job tougher.

The ONLY thing that stopping gun owners from enacting PRO gun laws is gun owners NOT helping out the cause. People like Kim Stolfer have a plan and they are making things happen, mostly because Kim does not operate from the top down but from the bottom up with individuals gun owners get involved and being a key element to getting things done. You all really should attend one of events that the ACSL sponsors or other similar groups sponsor and see how things get done. Instead of some group just wanting your money and trusting them to do something, it’s the lazy, apathy approach that got us into trouble in the first place.

Even IF you want to be a lone wolf, don’t want to belong to any organization because they don’t represent your views. We got the bill in motion and this bill would be good for you as well, so why won’t gun owners be an over whelming force to get this bill past in law that would benefit everyone except the criminals?


We have wonderful places like PAFOA to interconnect now, we have PRO gun bills introduced and in motion at our request now, so the rest is up to all of you IF you really want it then just make it happen, it’s up to you.