Email from senater Santorum

[9mmMike]

Wow. The ignorance of things biblical is overwhelming this thread.

The Old Testament should not be part of the Bible? Christ and the Apostles would disagree. In fact, in Christ’s day there was no other “Bible” and He and they quoted it often. Christ was the fulfillment of the prophecies spoken by the prophets of the Old Testament. Almost everything you read in the New can be cross-referenced to the Old, if you are really interested in studying.

What is a "hardcore Christian fascit"?

"The Bible was written, re-written, and edited by man"? Egads. There is so much information no the origin of the Bible that it is hard to believe that anyone would be willing to put their name to such a statement.

Too much repeated anti-Christian propaganda with not a shred of proof to back it up.
It is sad when the MSM can tell you what a Christian is and believes and you sit back and soak it up. Do you also believe (as gun owners) that guns are bad and cause crime? After all, it's what "they" say on TV.

I would challenge any one of you who are taking potshots at Christianity to attend a Bible Study at a church that teaches and preaches from the Bible and make some small effort to actually come to know Christ and Christianity before you make yourselves look so silly.

Being "raised Christian”? Going to church does not make you a Christian any more than standing in your garage makes you a car.

Mike

[LorDiego01]

Originally Posted by 9mmMike

What is a "hardcore Christian fascit"?

I'd say somebody who believes in the literal aspect of the bible instead of the philosophical message. And if that werent enough, its someone who wants to legislate morality based on the big old book.

"The Bible was written, re-written, and edited by man"? Egads. There is so much information no the origin of the Bible that it is hard to believe that anyone would be willing to put their name to such a statement.

Its called the King James Bible for a reason, no? And last time I checked, the bible orginiated as a much, much larger text, and it was later edited and cut down into our modern bible. What was edited and why?
Im not going to debate the bible with you, for the same reason you cant debate 3D Graphics creation with me. It wouldnt be a fair debate.
And I wont join a bible study, because 14 years of indoctrination didnt convince me as a child, I doubt a weekend retreat will do me in as an adult.

Too much repeated anti-Christian propaganda with not a shred of proof to back it up.

Again, why do Christians go crazy and play victim at the mention of Gay-marriage or if somebody disagrees with the holy book,

and WHY DO YOU HUSH UNDER THE CARPET THE MENTION OF PRIESTS ASS-RAPING LITTLE CHILDREN?? THIS WAS NOT ONE OR TWO CASES, BUT HUNDREDS, IF NOT THOUSANDS WORLD WIDE.

If you are going to judge morality, start from within.

Being "raised Christian”? Going to church does not make you a Christian any more than standing in your garage makes you a car.

I like that quote. And dont get me wrong from my posts, I dont dislike christianity or jesus or the messages in the bible, I dislike what men have done in the name of Jesus by the power of the church.

Lest we forget the inquisition, the crusades, the hatred and
the millions killed in the name of the Lord and all other atrocities perpetuated by the church.

I need at least 10 characters after the quote to post this.

[The Drew]

Originally Posted by 9mmMike

Wow. The ignorance of things biblical is overwhelming this thread.

The Old Testament should not be part of the Bible? Christ and the Apostles would disagree. In fact, in Christ’s day there was no other “Bible” and He and they quoted it often. Christ was the fulfillment of the prophecies spoken by the prophets of the Old Testament. Almost everything you read in the New can be cross-referenced to the Old, if you are really interested in studying.

As I said the old testament shouldn't be part of a real christian bible, If you believe in Christ, then you believe that he came and threw out many of those old ways... He came to reform, and to speak the word not just to rehash the old...

If you are a real christian you believe that the only way to heaven is through Christ, If you do not follow HIS word then you are not going to the father through him... You mustn't pay any heed to the old testament as following that can many times contradict the words and actions of Jesus... This is the problem... Too many "christians" are not christians at all, they follow whatever is fed them by their preachers and never read the new testament to see what it is really all about. Too many preachers mistake their politics with religion and find anything that can back them up... This is where the old testament with it's fire and brimstone and vengeful god come into the christian world...

[9mmMike]

How can you possibly think that anyone reading this will believe that you "don't dislike Christianity" when you post things like:

"Again, why do Christians go crazy and play victim at the mention of Gay-marriage or if somebody disagrees with the holy book,

and WHY DO YOU HUSH UNDER THE CARPET THE MENTION OF PRIESTS ASS-RAPING LITTLE CHILDREN?? THIS WAS NOT ONE OR TWO CASES, BUT HUNDREDS, IF NOT THOUSANDS WORLD WIDE.

If you are going to judge morality, start from within.", repeatedly?

It is hard to see how such a broad-brush, all inclusive sweep against Christians could be interpreted as anything but hatred.

I do not know any Christians who do any of the things that you insist are being done by Christians.

Is it not funny how it is the non-Christians who profess to be the experts on all things Christian? How strange that it is the non-Christians who insist on telling Christians what they are, what they believe, and how they are to behave, according to the Bible. The fact that non-Christians make such claims against Christians would funny if it weren't so sad, so rote.
It is those very folks who shout the virtues of tolerance from the highest mountains who are intolerant of Christianity.
There are several good books, studies and film about the origin of the Bible. I am not sure where, “the last time you checked’, might have been but you may wish to do a little more research. I would recommend that you do not use the TV as a source for studying.
Ever notice how the non-Christians will always refuse to study anything about Christ and yet feel compelled to tell Christians all about Christianity?
Last time I checked, nobody in this thread challenged the religion of 3D Graphics. Good luck with that. Also, this is hardly a debate. My point in my “study challenge” was to show readers that the bulk of the anti-Christian posters don’t really have anything to back up their statements. It’s just a bunch of angry rhetoric. Note the amount of vulgar language (most un-Christ-like) in the posts that are anti-Christian.

In any case, I apologize to those readers who came here for some political discussions. In my opinion Santorum is a friend to gun-owners and if that is important to you, you should consider that when it’s time to vote.

[9mmMike]

Originally Posted by The Drew

As I said the old testament shouldn't be part of a real christian bible, If you believe in Christ, then you believe that he came and threw out many of those old ways... He came to reform, and to speak the word not just to rehash the old...

If you are a real christian you believe that the only way to heaven is through Christ, If you do not follow HIS word then you are not going to the father through him... You mustn't pay any heed to the old testament as following that can many times contradict the words and actions of Jesus... This is the problem... Too many "christians" are not christians at all, they follow whatever is fed them by their preachers and never read the new testament to see what it is really all about. Too many preachers mistake their politics with religion and find anything that can back them up... This is where the old testament with it's fire and brimstone and vengeful god come into the christian world...

While it is true that Christ came to tell us that we cannot get to heaven by obeying Jewish law, neither He nor the apostles said to toss away the old writings.
You are right on track with the One Way and that is Jesus Christ. That is a hard concept for some to grasp, however it is wrong to suggest that the Old Testament is of no value to the Christian. As I said, if you study, you will find many times where Jesus used the words of the prophets to prove who he was and what it was that he was doing here on earth.
It is essential to use the Old Testament when studying the New. There is so much that you'll miss in your studies if you think that way.

[LittleRedToyota]

Originally Posted by 9mmMike

What is a "hardcore Christian fascit"?

it is someone who thinks they and/or the government should force their christian beliefs on others...should force everyone to live by christian morals and beliefs.

(note, i am not talking about basic human morals that are shared by nearly everyone and have vicitms when not followed...like you shouldn't generally kill people, steal from others, etc. those are not "christian" morals...though they are shared by chistians. i'm talking about personal choices like who you want to marry or have sex with or what you want to do with or put into your own body.)

no one should force you to not live your life by christian morals. likewise, you should not force anyone else to live their lives by christian morals. the definition of "hardcore christian fascist" is one who wants to force others to live by christian morals through physical force, legislation, terrorism, etc.

(btw, i was raised christian...as in went to 12 years of catholic school...my mother is the principal of a catholic school. my father used to be a teacher in a catholic school...went to church 3 times a week until 18, read and studied the bible until my copy was worn out, etc. but, i don't want to get into discussions of the bible, etc. as i have been through all that too many times...just wanted to answer the question of what is a christian fascist.)

btw, you are correct: freedom isn't free...the price is tolerance. if you want to be free to live by your christian morals, you have tolerate others being free to live their lives according to their own morals (again, as long as they do not interfere with other people right to do the same).

btw #2: to get somewhat back on topic...santorum wants to force others to live by his interpretation of christian morals via legislation...and he doesn't deny it--in fact, he is proud of it. thus, he is a fascist.

[Siobhra]

Stop all this BullS***.

Who cares? The right or wrong of any religion should not be argued on this board. The whole point should be to "how can we work together?"

When you use your religion to attack others or allow your religion to be used as a weapon, expect people to attack you.

We all get upset with the Muslims for trying to force us to convert to their faith yet some expect us to just roll over to their demands that we practice their religion. America, where you are free to worship anyway you want. But must practice the Christian Faith in public.

That's what we should be focused on and not bother with the right or wrong of any religion.

[ChamberedRound]

Originally Posted by 9mmMike

How can you possibly think that anyone reading this will believe that you "don't dislike Christianity" when you post things like:

"Again, why do Christians go crazy and play victim at the mention of Gay-marriage or if somebody disagrees with the holy book,

and WHY DO YOU HUSH UNDER THE CARPET THE MENTION OF PRIESTS ASS-RAPING LITTLE CHILDREN?? THIS WAS NOT ONE OR TWO CASES, BUT HUNDREDS, IF NOT THOUSANDS WORLD WIDE.

If you are going to judge morality, start from within.", repeatedly?

It is hard to see how such a broad-brush, all inclusive sweep against Christians could be interpreted as anything but hatred.

Mike, you have to calm down. Everyone, including yourself, is allowed to have an opinion. Just because you don't agree with those opinions doesn't mean anyone here has a hatred of Christians; it just means people view things differently than you.

In MY opinion, there is no hatred in these posts. There are no broad brushes here. Many Christians DO unequivocally denounce gays. Many Catholic priests HAVE sexually abused children. This is not broad hatred of a religion; this is fact.

Originally Posted by 9mmMike

I do not know any Christians who do any of the things that you insist are being done by Christians.

I don't personally know any Christians that do any of these despicable things either. But that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. To take one example above, more than a few Catholic priests admitted either in public or anonymously in confession to breaking their celibacy vows and abusing children. So much so that the Catholic Church had to arrange a meeting of the Cardinals to determine how to address the problem.

Let me qualify the above by making a distinction between priests of the Catholic faith and Christians. In your defense, Christians are a broader group. But Catholicism is probably the most well-known sect of Christianity on a global scale.

Originally Posted by 9mmMike

Is it not funny how it is the non-Christians who profess to be the experts on all things Christian? How strange that it is the non-Christians who insist on telling Christians what they are, what they believe, and how they are to behave, according to the Bible. The fact that non-Christians make such claims against Christians would funny if it weren't so sad, so rote.
It is those very folks who shout the virtues of tolerance from the highest mountains who are intolerant of Christianity.

I don't even know where to begin here.

No one here professed to be experts on Christianity.

No one here is telling you or any other Christian how to act, what to believe, or who you should be.

No one here is making any false claims.

As stated earlier, people have a right to an opinion, and we are just exercising that right. These opinions should not be misinterpreted as an attempt to tell you, Christians as a whole, or anyone else how to live. Likewise, that you disagree with the opinions stated here regarding Christians or Christianity should not be grounds for assuming such.

Originally Posted by 9mmMike

Note the amount of vulgar language (most un-Christ-like) in the posts that are anti-Christian.

Mike, this is exactly the kind of comment which "feeds the fire" you claim to be trying to prevent. If you don't want false claims made against Christians as a whole, do not, as a Christian, make false claims against non-Christians by broadly classifying them as vulgar.

Lots of people swear, curse, and use vulgar language, Christian and otherwise. Deal with it and realize that, in many cases (although admittedly not all), through the facade of vernacular lies a good person.

Practice what you preach. Where's the tolerance, the love and prayer for the sinner in the hope that said heathens may be delivered from sin?

Originally Posted by 9mmMike

In any case, I apologize to those readers who came here for some political discussions. In my opinion Santorum is a friend to gun-owners and if that is important to you, you should consider that when it’s time to vote.

I agree with you that Santorum is good for gun owners. Although I can't speak for the group, my opinion of the tone of this discussion (which I agree with) is that although good for gun owners, what price do we have to pay in other areas by voting for him? Personally, I don't like either candidate, but when forced to choose the lesser of two evils, I'll choose the one which maximizes benefit vs. risk.

[9mmMike]

Sorry for this long reply but since you addressed several of the things from my post I felt obliged to do the same. I was going to let it rest but you obviously spent a little time and it seemed fair to do the same.
Please feel free to ignore this post. I will not be offended.

Originally Posted by ChamberedRound

Mike, you have to calm down. Everyone, including yourself, is allowed to have an opinion. Just because you don't agree with those opinions doesn't mean anyone here has a hatred of Christians; it just means people view things differently than you.

In MY opinion, there is no hatred in these posts. There are no broad brushes here. Many Christians DO unequivocally denounce gays. Many Catholic priests HAVE sexually abused children. This is not broad hatred of a religion; this is fact.

I am calm. Thanks. I agree that everyone has an opinion, however when someone posts things like “but why do hardcore Christian fascits belive gay marriage will ruin society..
yet, priets ass-raping little children wont?” and repeats it with, “WHY DO YOU HUSH UNDER THE CARPET THE MENTION OF PRIESTS ASS-RAPING LITTLE CHILDREN?? THIS WAS NOT ONE OR TWO CASES, BUT HUNDREDS, IF NOT THOUSANDS WORLD WIDE”, in caps, how is this not a broad stroke against Christians?
Where, as in your post, does it say “some” or “alleged Christians”. It does not.
I have also made and assumption here that when someone answers my post and uses the word “you” (as in “you hush under”) he really means me.

Originally Posted by ChamberedRound

I don't personally know any Christians that do any of these despicable things either. But that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. To take one example above, more than a few Catholic priests admitted either in public or anonymously in confession to breaking their celibacy vows and abusing children. So much so that the Catholic Church had to arrange a meeting of the Cardinals to determine how to address the problem.

Let me qualify the above by making a distinction between priests of the Catholic faith and Christians. In your defense, Christians are a broader group. But Catholicism is probably the most well-known sect of Christianity on a global scale.

If a person wishes to discuss Catholicism, they might wish to use the word Catholicism. If a person thinks that all Christians are catholic, it only proves my point about too much TV, not enough studying. I appreciate your trying to take both sides, (or neither), here but my points are not about arguing for Christianity in this thread. My points are arguing against people who do not really have any idea and are just repeating what they hear because it is quite fashionable these days to take shots at Christianity. It would be swell if they took the time to read and learn, not parrot.

Originally Posted by ChamberedRound

I don't even know where to begin here.

No one here professed to be experts on Christianity.

No one here is telling you or any other Christian how to act, what to believe, or who you should be.

No one here is making any false claims.

Again, I would always challenge anyone who is not Christian who thinks they are fit to chastise Christians on how to be a Christian to take some time to study and not to repeat rhetoric from folks who hate Christians.

As far as the false claims go,

“Jesus said marriage is final yet since the majority of Christians don't want to be tied down to one spouse they search the fine print to find the 'loopholes' in the Bible to allow divorce.
Remarriage after divorce is Adultery. Pure and simple. We as a nation endorse adultery by allowing remarriage. Where are the Christian leaders while this is going on? They know better than to say anything since it will hurt their collection plate.”

And

“Why not convince the church to help make a better world, instead of telling people in poor countries to not use birth control, or even condoms!!!???

Why should I be forced to live my life by a book... that was written, re-written, and edited by men.”

And

“And last time I checked, the bible orginiated as a much, much larger text, and it was later edited and cut down into our modern bible.”

And

“Again, why do Christians go crazy and play victim at the mention of Gay-marriage or if somebody disagrees with the holy book,”

Are all examples of false claims and generalizations by folks who are not Christian and yet see fit to explain “how it is” with Christianity.

Originally Posted by ChamberedRound

As stated earlier, people have a right to an opinion, and we are just exercising that right. These opinions should not be misinterpreted as an attempt to tell you, Christians as a whole, or anyone else how to live. Likewise, that you disagree with the opinions stated here regarding Christians or Christianity should not be grounds for assuming such.


Mike, this is exactly the kind of comment which "feeds the fire" you claim to be trying to prevent. If you don't want false claims made against Christians as a whole, do not, as a Christian, make false claims against non-Christians by broadly classifying them as vulgar.

Lots of people swear, curse, and use vulgar language, Christian and otherwise. Deal with it and realize that, in many cases (although admittedly not all), through the facade of vernacular lies a good person.

Practice what you preach. Where's the tolerance, the love and prayer for the sinner in the hope that said heathens may be delivered from sin?

My point is that there is no substance to the posts. The language used is what one often sees when a person has nothing to offer as proof. Add a few expletives and suddenly, the post appears to have some weight. Christians may occasionally let a swear fly but it would be very unlikely to see one write one down. I have not suggested that anyone here is not “a good person”. Several others have suggested that Christians do not care about pedophiles or that they hate gay people etc.

I do practice what I preach. I do not do any of the things that Christians are supposedly doing according to this thread. You are greatly misinformed if you think that tolerance and acceptance are the same thing. And just because I have not posted “I am praying for you” does mean that I am not.

Also, I am not sure where I claimed to be worried about “feeding the fire”. I did not broadly classify anyone as vulgar. I suggested that the use of vulgar language was a lame way to make a point. It is wrong for you to claim that I called someone vulgar. I did not.

It is a shame that some people have had some bad experiences with people who claimed to be Christians. I really feel bad about that but since anyone can claim to be a Christian, there’s not much I can do about that. However, when people who do not have anything but an opinion cast aspersions on Christianity because they think it’s cool or something, I will respond. I am quite serious about the suggestions to study and although I struggle with sarcasm in my posts, I really do believe that many people are just repeating what they hear with no regard as to what they are saying. It’s OK to offend a Christian afterall. In fact, it seems to be a hobby for some. If these posts were racial, there’d be outrage but since Christians are fair game, there is little to no complaints.

It was never my intent to post anything negative about non-Christians other than to suggest that they do not have the research to back up what they’ve said. If they do, bring it.

That’s my opinion.

Originally Posted by ChamberedRound

I agree with you that Santorum is good for gun owners. Although I can't speak for the group, my opinion of the tone of this discussion (which I agree with) is that although good for gun owners, what price do we have to pay in other areas by voting for him? Personally, I don't like either candidate, but when forced to choose the lesser of two evils, I'll choose the one which maximizes benefit vs. risk.

Okeedokee

[The Drew]

Mike,

You are exhibiting the exact kind of behavior many of us have come to expect from a "religious zealot" christian or otherwise, if you feel that someone has "attacked" your religion you attack back and use nothing but your holy book to find justification.

Please be advised that not everyone in this nation is whatever flavor of christianity you happen to be and many of us aren't religious at all...

The point being, we don't want to be governed by someone else's religious law...