Pa. House considers making owners report lost, stolen handguns 3/17/08

[larrymeyer]

http://www.examiner.com/a-1285001~Pa..._handguns.html

Pa. House considers making owners report lost, stolen handguns


Filed under: HARRISBURG, Pa. , MARK SCOLFORO , XGR Gun Control
March 17,2008 11:48 PM (5 hrs ago) By MARK SCOLFORO

HARRISBURG, Pa. (Map, News) - The state House of Representatives on Monday began consideration of a proposal that would impose criminal penalties on gun owners who do not quickly inform police when a handgun is lost or stolen.

The legislation, designed to combat straw purchasers of illegal handguns, would require reporting within 72 hours of when a weapon is found to be missing.

"This is an amendment about life and death, life and death," said the sponsor, Rep. David Levdansky, D-Allegheny. "It's about making an effort in the Legislature to help stop the human carnage and taking a stand against the violence that's perpetrated by those who traffic in lost and stolen handguns."

Debate ended for the night after about two hours when the chamber adjourned upon hitting its 11 p.m. curfew. The session was due to resume at 11 a.m. Tuesday.

Under the amendment, when police come across a handgun in a criminal investigation, any first-time nonreporting owner could be charged with a summary offense. A second offense would be a misdemeanor and a third offense a felony.

"The reality is, if this is going on multiple times, it's likely pretty obvious what's going on here, it's a person involved in straw purchases," Levdansky said.

People whose criminal backgrounds prevent them from buying guns legally sometimes enlist those with clean records to buy guns for them. Investigators say those straw purchasers often lie and say the guns that were traced back to them had been stolen or lost.

Rep. Mike Vereb, R-Montgomery, a former police officer, said the amendment failed to define what would constitute a "criminal investigation" in which a gun was recovered, triggering criminal penalties for a nonreporting owner.

"I would just rather leave that up to the law enforcement community and the prosecutors to make that judgment based on past practice and based on what's already in state statute," Levdansky replied.

Rep. Cherelle Parker, D-Philadelphia, said Graterford state prison inmates told her last week that reporting of lost and stolen guns would reduce violent crime.

"They said ... you're going to make it rough and tough to get hot heat on the street," Parker said.

Rep. Mike Turzai, R-Allegheny, said the amendment's language was unclear and penalized gun dealers too harshly for failing to provide customers with information about the rules for lending or transferring a gun.

"You are making the job of a prosecutor much more difficult," Turzai said. "I tried hundreds of cases as a prosecutor, and I can assure you that this is not a statute that either a prosecutor's office or the police would be able to readily use."

Levdansky proposed the measure as an amendment to a bill that would increase the penalty for altering serial numbers on guns, making what is currently a misdemeanor into a felony.

Gun legislation is always fiercely debated in the Pennsylvania Legislature, usually pitting lawmakers from the state's urban areas who favor more restrictions against a substantial contingent not inclined to impose new limits.

Last year, Democratic Gov. Ed Rendell appeared before a legislative committee to push for lost-and-stolen reporting and other gun control measures. Members of the Legislative Black Caucus walked off the House floor in December to draw attention to the problem of gun violence.

Philadelphia has endured more than a murder a day in recent years - most of them shootings - and two members of the City Council have sued to seek authority to enact the city's own gun restrictions.

Monday's session ended before the House could vote on a claim by Rep. Bryan Cutler, R-Lancaster, that the Levdansky amendment is unconstitutional.

After the House finishes considering all amendments to the bill, it would have to pass the chamber on another day and get through the Senate before it would go to the governor.

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Second Article

http://extra.examiner.com/linker/?ur...xml%26coll%3D1

Bill seeks to thwart backdoor gun buys

Owners would have 3 days to report theft Tuesday, March 18, 2008BY CHARLES THOMPSONOf The Patriot-News

A handgun owner who discovered a gun had been lost or stolen would have three days to report the loss to police, or could face criminal charges if the weapon was later traced to a crime, under legislation that hit the state House floor Monday.

Debate was suspended at 11 p.m. without a vote but is expected to resume today on the proposal, which arrived with a determined, but long-shot, push from gun-control advocates.

Supporters tout the requirement to report loss or theft as a way to go after so-called straw purchasers, who buy guns for resale on the black market and then claim the weapons were lost or stolen if they are used in crimes and traced back to them.

"It is extremely difficult to refute that claim," state police Commissioner Jeffrey Miller said.

Under the proposal, the gun's original buyer could be charged criminally if no report had been filed and the gun was used in a crime. First offenses would bring a fine, with harsher penalties for repeat offenses.

Supporters, including numerous police groups and mayors of cities plagued by violent crime, have said the measure could have a chilling effect on the willingness of people to help illegal gun traffickers.

Sponsor David Levdansky, D-Allegheny, said hunters are protected because the bill applies only to handguns and the reporting clock would begin only after the loss is discovered. If an owner didn't know his guns had been stolen from a hunting cabin, he would not be liable.

But sportsmen and advocates for gun owners launched a fierce attack against the legislation, offered as an amendment to a bill that would increase penalties for altering gun serial numbers. They called it a feel-good measure that wouldn't be as effective as stricter enforcement of existing laws and stiffer prison sentences.

"We should not be going after law-abiding citizens unless we've proven the point [that it would reduce crime], and we haven't," said Kim Stolfer, a legislative liaison for the Allegheny County Sportsmen's League.

Most supporters conceded the proposal appeared headed for defeat.

The Legislature, in the state with the nation's second-largest number of licensed hunters, hasn't passed a bill dealing directly with gun control since 1999, when lawmakers mandated the purchase of trigger locks with new handguns.

But lawmakers who support gun control said simply getting a vote after years of stalemate is a significant step, "because even when we lose ... now we have a record that people can judge," said Rep. Cherelle Parker, D-Philadelphia.

Joe Grace, the executive director of CeaseFire PA, said his group will use the vote to draw distinctions between lawmakers "who want to make Pennsylvania a safer place ... and those who don't."

CHARLES THOMPSON: 705-5724 or cthompson@patriot-news.com



WTF THE ONLY PEOPLE THIS PENALIZES IS THE CITIZENS OF PENNSYLVANIA

[zoom]

Rep. Cherelle Parker, D-Philadelphia, said Graterford state prison inmates told her last week that reporting of lost and stolen guns would reduce violent crime.

So now Philly is getting legal advice from criminals... lovely.

Maybe I am missing something in her argument. The criminal would still have the gun and still has the ability to kill people. So how is it going to reduce violent crime? That would only work if a cop ran the serial number of a criminal's gun and to do that the cop would need a reason to perform a search since the gun would undoubtedly be concealed.

BUT... if a person is caught carrying a stolen gun chances are they are not legally allowed to own one and they do not poses a LTCF. So they can already be arrested and have their gun confiscated. The fact that it is stolen is irrelevant in terms of arrests, it merely adds on to the list of charges.

[I'm armed]

I watched this on PCN last night. Rep. Levdansky didn't seem to be able to answer many questions on the bill or current law without getting help from someone else (except for the obviously scripted questions from Rep. Cherelle Parker....that was like a really, really bad tv infomercial).

Even with help, some of the questions weren't really answered. It was confusing.

Levdansky said that if a handgun is recovered and is not part of a criminal investigation, a penalty does not apply. Rep. Verberb asked if in a situation like a traffic stop (is not a criminal investigation), if a driver has a LCTF but a stolen handgun would this bill apply. Levdansky said no.

Rep. Vererb (sp?) asked if Rep. Levdansky if he could think of a scenario where it is not a criminal investigation. Rep. Levdansky said something about leave it up to law enforcement and DAs to determine if it is a criminal investigation or not. (what!?!)

Rep. Mike Turzai made a good point about parts in the legislation were in conflict with each other.

Rep. Brain Cutler moved for the amendment to be unconstitutional under the 5th amendment, and cited a court case. Hanes v. ??? (I didn't catch that)



For as much as some Dems have been wanting a bill like this to go to the House floor for a vote, you would think they would have made a better attempt to know what the hell they were talking about.


My opinions after watching this:

1. Repeatedly answering questions by saying this is law in 7 other states is not an argument for passing it here. Especially when you're using NJ as an example.

2. "common sense" = bullshit

3. Repeating everything you just said doesn't answer questions about what you just said.

4. Anyone introducing a bill/amendment should have knowledge of the current law.

5. I'm glad my rep is Daryl Metcalfe.

[larrymeyer]

Rep. Cherelle Parker, D-Philadelphia, said Graterford state prison inmates told her last week that reporting of lost and stolen guns would reduce violent crime.

I don't know what she would expect them to say ! Gee we think taking guns out of the hands of honest people would cut down on violent crime. The honest person couldn't shoot back at us and we'd be able to intermittent the sheep.

I wrote all my reps and a few others I must admit I did call the idiots and ass wipes if they vote for this legislation. Suggested they put the National Guard around the state and search every plane, train and automobile coming into the state and arrest everyone who has a gun.

If they did the above we could cut down on crime as with no guns in the state we'd save money on police we could cut PSP as well as local police departments. With no violent crime we wouldn't need as many police. We could cut down on Judges and JP there wouldn't be that much for them to do. DA's would be cut why would we need that many to plea bargain offenses down and once they got done prosecuting honest gun holders we'd realize a big savings. So we could build bigger jail for the honest criminals.

Also ask how would you prosecute a person from West Virgina or Virgina or North Carolina, Ohio etc. Would they send police to those states to arrest their citizens. I'm not in another state but you send police over the border to arrest someone who had a gun lost or stolen I'd be pissed and we may wind up in Federal Court.

Dud it just went through my thick skull the pro gun rally is April 7 or they trying to get this bill in before then ??????????????

The above statements or my own IMHO I believe I'm right

[ChamberedRound]

Of course criminals are going to say that gun owners should be obligated to report lost or stolen firearms. If LEOs spend all their time and effort cracking down on property owners, then the criminals get away with stealing the firearm to use for a crime.

[Steve in PA]

How is reporting a stolen firearm going to lead to LEO's "cracking down" on the people that report it?

[rev214]

Originally Posted by ChamberedRound

Of course criminals are going to say that gun owners should be obligated to report lost or stolen firearms. If LEOs spend all their time and effort cracking down on property owners, then the criminals get away with stealing the firearm to use for a crime.

So true!

And yet a good chunk of the PA legislature can't comprehend that simple common sense.

And in my little slice of communism (i.e., New Jersey), common sense is nonsense.

[LBaker]

They ACTUALLY believe that people who are breaking the law will stop because they pass a new law...

[ChamberedRound]

Originally Posted by Steve in PA

How is reporting a stolen firearm going to lead to LEO's "cracking down" on the people that report it?

It's not, it's going to lead to the opposite, which is going after those owners which didn't report it. What if a crime was committed before the owner even knew the gun was gone? Unlikely, but possible in the case of theft. When a crime is committed, law enforcement and the DA should be focused on the criminal first, not the potential victim of a theft or misplaced weapon. Where it came from doesn't change the fact that the crime was committed by an individual, and that individual is not necessarily the owner of the weapon.

I don't think there's a person out there who LEGALLY owns a weapon that wouldn't do the right thing and report it, if/once they knew it was stolen. But to codify that into law and set a penalty for those that don't report is IMHO making a criminal out of a victim. And for those that would willingly hand over a weapon to a criminal, there's already laws on the books to punish them, namely straw purchase and illegal transfer laws.

To me, the most dangerous thing about such a law is that over time, it will cause a change in perception and thought. Over time, it will be seen as acceptable for law enforcement, and the public at large, to pre-judge and condemn gun owners simply for owning a weapon and being a victim of a theft, misplaced, or lost firearm. And that type of thinking, when codified into law, opens the door for more sweeping gun control legislation, as it sets the mental foundation that "guns are bad, gun owners are worse".

[P89]

Originally Posted by larrymeyer

WTF THE ONLY PEOPLE THIS PENALIZES IS THE CITIZENS OF PENNSYLVANIA

Government knows whats best for you...don't question it.