Pa. House considers making owners report lost, stolen handguns 3/17/08

[Steve in PA]

Originally Posted by larrymeyer

Let me ask a simple question. I don't know how many guns you have but I'll ask

You and your better half decide to go on vacation or better a cruise you can't take you guns so you leave them home. The day after you leave for you 7 days vacation someone breaks into your house steals your gun and kills a pizza store owner the next day the police catch him the following day with your gun. Remember you didn't report it stolen you get off your cruise ship and there are 5 LEO's waiting for you with a warrant for your arrest because you violated the 24 hour law now you and the guy who broke into your house are sitting in jail waiting for trial.

He gets a public defender but you make to much money for a PD so you have to find a lawyer. He gets out on RNR and you can't make bail. He plea bargains down to a misdemeanor and walks. You get 1 year and must serve it along with 2 years probation and can never own another gun.

This law is BS

Your 24 hour rule only comes into play when the gun owner KNOWS or LEARNS the gun is stolen or missing. Has nothing to do with you being on vacation, etc.

Your scenario is totally inaccurate.

[GunLawyer001]

Originally Posted by Steve in PA

Your 24 hour rule only comes into play when the gun owner KNOWS or LEARNS the gun is stolen or missing. Has nothing to do with you being on vacation, etc.

Your scenario is totally inaccurate.

Not totally. If the statute as enacted has a scienter requirement, that the theft victim knew "or should have known", that opens up a huge potential for second-guessing. Even in the vacation hypothetical, if your stolen guns are used to shoot up a school, a dozen little corpses on the ground and the media running wild, who's to say that you weren't negligent in abandoning your guns for so long, and that a prudent person "should" have taken steps to monitor his arsenal, so that you "should have known" they were stolen?

You don't think that a DA under pressure, or just an anti-gunner looking for headlines, might not prosecute and let a jury do some Monday morning quarterbacking about your actions?

If it were an "actual knowledge" standard, then the DA would have to affirmatively prove that you knew of the theft. That's tough to do. But "should have known" is too easy. People who don't own any guns think that losing a gun should be as obvious as losing a leg, they don't have a clue that some of us misplace 3-foot long rifles for months, own pistols that we haven't seen for years, and occasionally come across a case of ammo or even a gun that we don't remember buying. Reporting the theft of 9 guns isn't a defense to not reporting the 10th gun that was also stolen at the same time.

Quick, list every item currently in your car. You put it all in there, you must know what's there, right? Could I steal a few items that you wouldn't notice missing? If I stole the whole car, might you forget a few of the things that aren't there for you to look at anymore?

Criminalizing someone for failing to flawlessly jump through every specified hoop after he's victimized by a burglary is not the way to combat straw purchasers. Arresting and convicting straw purchasers is the way to combat straw purchasers. Sure, it's hard to prosecute them. Most crimes are hard to prosecute. Criminals often try to hide their illegal conduct. That doesn't justify punishing non-criminal acts, just because they're easier to discover. When wolves attack your sheep, you don't shoot the sheep just because the wolves keeps hiding and the sheep are easier to spot.

[jerkin]

Agree 100% gunlawyer. Case in point, My buddy was robbed last year in broad daylight on a Sunday afternoon while we were at a fishing tournament. He only had 4 or 5 guns and they dropped one of them at the side door on the way out so that was the first thing he looked for and knew exactly what was missing since he only had a couple.

What he didn't notice however was the brand new $500 Stihl chainsaw missing from his attached garage. It took at least a month, maybe longer, until he went to use the saw that he even realized it was missing. The insurance company was really good about it though and wrote him another check even though they had already settled his claim. They told him it happens about every time someone is robbed, they almost never know everything that is stolen until months down the road.

Point being he never even realized it was missing until he needed it and started looking for it. It was a chainsaw in this case but could have just as easily been one of his rifles. The insurance company was cool with it but that's not saying a DA would have been if it had been a firearm.

[knight0334]

That theft report thing is a just a backdoor tactic to make an innocent into a victim or criminal.

Bad mojo!

[ChamberedRound]

Originally Posted by larrymeyer

Those dirty bastards table it till Philly gets back

I'm really getting tired of Philly having so much say in state politics. I know that's how the House works as it's based on population, but damn these idiots are frustrating.

[WhiteFeather]

Was going to post this elsewhere but why start another similar thread


Think that gun onwers can't make a differance? read the results of everyones emails and phone calls made on short notice.



http://www.pennlive.com/news/patriot...980.xml&coll=1

Bill seeks to thwart backdoor gun buys


headline%%Owners would have 3 days to report theft Tuesday, March 18, 2008BY CHARLES THOMPSON Of The Patriot-News

A handgun owner who discovered a gun had been lost or stolen would have three days to report the loss to police, or could face criminal charges if the weapon was later traced to a crime, under legislation that hit the state House floor Monday.

Debate was suspended at 11 p.m. without a vote but is expected to resume today on the proposal, which arrived with a determined, but long-shot, push from gun-control advocates.

Supporters tout the requirement to report loss or theft as a way to go after so-called straw purchasers, who buy guns for resale on the black market and then claim the weapons were lost or stolen if they are used in crimes and traced back to them.

"It is extremely difficult to refute that claim," state police Commissioner Jeffrey Miller said.

Under the proposal, the gun's original buyer could be charged criminally if no report had been filed and the gun was used in a crime. First offenses would bring a fine, with harsher penalties for repeat offenses.

Supporters, including numerous police groups and mayors of cities plagued by violent crime, have said the measure could have a chilling effect on the willingness of people to help illegal gun traffickers.

Sponsor David Levdansky, D-Allegheny, said hunters are protected because the bill applies only to handguns and the reporting clock would begin only after the loss is discovered. If an owner didn't know his guns had been stolen from a hunting cabin, he would not be liable.

But sportsmen and advocates for gun owners launched a fierce attack against the legislation, offered as an amendment to a bill that would increase penalties for altering gun serial numbers. They called it a feel-good measure that wouldn't be as effective as stricter enforcement of existing laws and stiffer prison sentences.

"We should not be going after law-abiding citizens unless we've proven the point [that it would reduce crime], and we haven't," said Kim Stolfer, a legislative liaison for the Allegheny County Sportsmen's League.

Most supporters conceded the proposal appeared headed for defeat.

The Legislature, in the state with the nation's second-largest number of licensed hunters, hasn't passed a bill dealing directly with gun control since 1999, when lawmakers mandated the purchase of trigger locks with new handguns.

But lawmakers who support gun control said simply getting a vote after years of stalemate is a significant step, "because even when we lose ... now we have a record that people can judge," said Rep. Cherelle Parker, D-Philadelphia.

Joe Grace, the executive director of CeaseFire PA, said his group will use the vote to draw distinctions between lawmakers "who want to make Pennsylvania a safer place ... and those who don't."
CHARLES THOMPSON: 705-5724 or cthompson@patriot-news.com

This bill stated purpose is to go after straw buyers, it doesn’t and it won't be used that way as others have already correctly pointed out.

This link provides an interesting read on how serious (or not) they are for going after straw purchasers. It’s written as reasons for more gun control laws like this reporting of lost or stolen firearms but it points out they are not serious about prosecution. So what is the point of this law if someone can purchase, then illegal transfer 10 handguns and only get probation instead of jail time? what message does it send.....

http://www.pafoa.org/forum/pennsylva...er-barrel.html

[CoyoteJack]

Originally Posted by Steve in PA

How is reporting a stolen firearm going to lead to LEO's "cracking down" on the people that report it?

While I am not against any good tool that would make law enforcement easier I agree with GunLawyer001 and others who have pointed out the poor wording of 'should have known'. I keep my firearms locked up in one safe or another when not in use. The only real exception would be one that is being working on in which case it is functionally inert if left on my workbench. I don't however open every safe every two or three days and confirm the presence of each and every firearm I own. As unlikely as it would be for someone to break into my home, crack my safe without leaving visible evidence and remove one or more firearms I do not want legislation passed that may force me to take a daily count of everything I own.

The 'should have known' is a case of poor wording. I understand why it would be wanted, because it is too simply for a straw purchaser to simply state I didn't know it was stolen. However I'm not of the opinion that is ok to dragnet the population in order to catch a few crooks and if some innocents get caught at the same time it is an acceptable situation.

I see such legislation as more likely to discourage the honest from owning multiple firearms rather than really stopping the transfer of firearms by means of straw purchases.

[larrymeyer]

I agree with GunLawyer001 if you've ever had a burglary in your house or a fire. Most insurance companies require proof. So you don't forget what you have they recommend you take pictures of every room and create a list of whats in the room. While I have a list of guns I own a few of the guns are at my sons house. Is he responsible under this law to report it, or am I or worse case could we both go to the hoosegow.

Under the amendment, when police come across a handgun in a criminal investigation, any first-time nonreporting owner could be charged with a summary offense. A second offense would be a misdemeanor and a third offense a felony.

Does each gun constitute an offense if you had three guns stolen and each was used in a different crime ?

[gunperson003]

Originally Posted by WhiteFeather

Joe Grace, the executive director of CeaseFire PA, said his group will use the vote to draw distinctions between lawmakers "who want to make Pennsylvania a safer place ... and those who don't."

He is absolutely correct, lawmakers want to make Pennsulvania a safer place... for the criminals. A good example of how they want to do is place innocent people like Tony Martin in jail and the keep the convicts in the public.

[LittleRedToyota]

Originally Posted by WhiteFeather

[But lawmakers who support gun control said simply getting a vote after years of stalemate is a significant step, "because even when we lose ... now we have a record that people can judge," said Rep. Cherelle Parker, D-Philadelphia.

is cherelle really sure she wants that record that people can judge?

the philly legislators might find themselves even more alone after the next round of elections.