Pa. House considers making owners report lost, stolen handguns 3/17/08

[XD45]

I actually don't have a problem with this.

[WhiteFeather]

Rep. Brain Cutler moved for the amendment to be unconstitutional under the 5th amendment, and cited a court case. Hanes v. ??? (I didn't catch that)

paraphrasing Rep Cutler questions

Representative Cutler asked a several questions to Rep Levdansky about this amendment.
"Specifically would this amendment apply to criminals that must also report lost or stolen firearms", Rep Levdansky replied "YES, everyone must report there firearm lost or stolen including criminals".

Rep Cutler mentioned that "the supreme court of United States have ruled that previously convicted criminals can not be prosecuted for violating the section because it’s a violation of their constitutional rights not to self incriminate themselves. Haynes vs United States 1968" under their fifth amendments right. So basically is perfectly legal for criminals to lie or write false information on a form or lie to the police and cannot be charged under Levedansky amendment.

Amendment 5 - Trial and Punishment, Compensation for Takings
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Rep Cutler, then ask the Levdansky amendment be ruled unconstitutional, and asked for a full house vote on this issuse, the session ended before this could be acted upon on Monday night.

Rep Cutler Constitutional question vote, was not about the 2nd amendment violation, but was about previously convicted criminals will not have obey this proposed Levdansky amendment, so really this law is only going to apply to honest citizens ONLY having to report lost or stolen firearms.

What I found funny is all the anti-gun Reps started hoping up and down says "its not against the 2nd amendment to do this".




Everyone can Watch the circus online (live when in actual sesson). Talk about grandstanding.... watch these anti-gunners in action.
http://www.statewatch.com/www/PA/lib.../livehouse.htm

[DCChris]

I wouldn't think you'd need a law requiring you to report stolen property. Believe me, if someone stole one of my guns, there'd be a major shit storm, no one needs to tell me when to start.

[rev214]

Originally Posted by DCChris

I wouldn't think you'd need a law requiring you to report stolen property. Believe me, if someone stole one of my guns, there'd be a major shit storm, no one needs to tell me when to start.

exactly!
its common sense...
many want to legislate common sense, which makes no sense...

[larrymeyer]

Originally Posted by DCChris

I wouldn't think you'd need a law requiring you to report stolen property. Believe me, if someone stole one of my guns, there'd be a major shit storm, no one needs to tell me when to start.

Let me ask a simple question. I don't know how many guns you have but I'll ask

You and your better half decide to go on vacation or better a cruise you can't take you guns so you leave them home. The day after you leave for you 7 days vacation someone breaks into your house steals your gun and kills a pizza store owner the next day the police catch him the following day with your gun. Remember you didn't report it stolen you get off your cruise ship and there are 5 LEO's waiting for you with a warrant for your arrest because you violated the 24 hour law now you and the guy who broke into your house are sitting in jail waiting for trial.

He gets a public defender but you make to much money for a PD so you have to find a lawyer. He gets out on RNR and you can't make bail. He plea bargains down to a misdemeanor and walks. You get 1 year and must serve it along with 2 years probation and can never own another gun.

This law is BS

[larrymeyer]

Originally Posted by XD45

I actually don't have a problem with this.

XD Humor me why don't you have a problem with this law ??

[XD45]

Originally Posted by larrymeyer

XD Humor me why don't you have a problem with this law ??

3days from the time you figure out its missing to report it to the PD? I'd be on the phone with them shitting my pants after 5seconds. If your doing nothing illegal you have nothing to worry about.

[gnbrotz]

One of the big problems I see was language starting the 'clock' on reporting when it "is known or should have been known" that the guns were missing. Who decides when it should have been known? An officer, the DA....why are we intentionally creating new legislation with such poor language? Is this all the more we should expect from our 'professional' lawmakers?

[Pooch15825]

Originally Posted by XD45

3days from the time you figure out its missing to report it to the PD? I'd be on the phone with them shitting my pants after 5seconds. If your doing nothing illegal you have nothing to worry about.

If I'm doing nothing wrong I have nothing to worry about, what about this..If I am doing nothing wrong, why should they need a new law to deal with me doing nothing wrong?

Of course any law abiding person will report a lost or stolen firearm, so there is no problem there. Now they say it will stop straw purchases, how is my losing a gun going to stop a straw purchase? What about a person that does straw purchases? First off, they aren't going to report the guns missing, secondly unless someone is caught with one of these weapons,, no one will ever know they have been doing it and they can continue to put more illegal guns out there. This is just another backdoor attempt at controlling guns.

If it passes as it is, then someone will say, "You know, this is sort of an empty law, without being able to go to people's houses and make sure they still have their guns and they aren't lost or stolen or missing, we will need a law to do searches as a preventive measure". It is a downhill tumble from there.

It is an unneeded law, plus leaving it up to the disgression of the officer on scene as was expressed, comparing it to a traffic violation for speeding and the officer could decide to issue a citation or not, leaves a lot to be desired. What if the officer on scene is anti-gun, you know you are getting a screwing, if he is pro-gun you will get the lighter side of it. I personally see laws as to be followed and if they are wrong you deal with it in court, I don't feel passing a law and then deciding to allow the officer to figure out if you are to be charged or not is wrong. Why have laws at all, just tell those carrying the badges to use their judgement and either shoot you or let you go.

It is a useless law, only law abiding citizens will be affected and maybe an occasional "REAL" lawbreaker will be busted. However, in the long run it is just another law taking away my rights.

Pooch15825

[larrymeyer]

Update on these bills from the PA Federation of Sportsmen's Clubs

SB 1150: Browne Amends Title 18 (Crimes and Offenses) further providing for cruelty to animals by prohibiting the use of live animals or fowl for targets at trap shoots or block shoots. The bill provides for definitions penalties.
This is the pigeon shoot bill. It was passed over in committee this morning, which means it was taken of the table and no vote was cast. It could still be brought back up in the future.

HB 1845 & Amendments: Amends Title 18 (Crimes & Offenses) further providing for possession of firearms with altered manufacturer's numbers by increasing the grading of the offense to a felony of the second degree (from a misdemeanor of the first degree). Additionally, the legislation deletes language creating a presumption that possession of a firearm upon which any identification mark is changed, altered, removed or obliterated is be prima facie evidence that the possessor made the change or alteration and language providing for appellate review in instances where the identification mark is changed.
House Bill 1845 was scheduled for final consideration this week. It provides for enhanced penalties for possession of a firearm with altered manufacturer's (serial) number as well as increased penalties for altering or obliterating marks of identification on firearms. The original bill was not controversial but several amendments filed late last week were.

Two of the amendments are pro-gun and ones we SUPPORT:

The first amendment (A05131) is Rep. Cappelli’s bill – HB 641 – the Castle Doctrine that has been bottled up in the Judiciary Committee.

The second amendment (A05706) is Rep. Stevenson’s – HB 1029 – that will allow holders of a valid Concealed Carry Weapons (CCW) PA License to Carry a Firearm to bypass (as an exception to) the PA Instant Check when purchasing a firearm.

We do NOT SUPPORT the other amendments, one of which was reporting lost & stolen firearms.

The House debated the "Reporting Lost & Stolen" amendment till 11:00 last night. It was mostly a speech by Rep. Parker (Phila.) about why this was needed and how it was not an infringement on our rights to buy a firearm. A few other representatives spoke against it, then Rep. Cutler asked to have the amendment withdrawn saying it was unconstitutional based on court rulings that said a convicted felon could not be charged for not reporting, because he would be incriminating himself.

Before Rep. Cutler finished, and any votes could be taken, discussion was cut off because of their rule to end session by 11:00pm.

They were to pick up where they left off at 11:00am this morning. (7 more amendments were filed on the bill last night.) However, when they got to the floor at 11:00, the Democrats were short by about 8 legislators, as they were all in Philly for the Obama rally this morning. When the Republicans made a motion to bring a bill up for vote, the Democrats had to quickly recess for some emergency. They kept everyone waiting around all day to give the 8 missing members a chance to return. When that didn't happen, they eventually recessed for the day.

They do not return for session until March 31st.

Rumor was that they didn't have the votes to pass their amendments, so they were going to try to table any further votes on amendments so we couldn't get any of our amendments voted on either. We'll have to wait till they return to see what develops.

Thanks to the NRA and John Hohenwarter for working with us on these issues! And thanks to everyone who took the time to contact their legislators on these issues.
MZ

Those dirty bastards table it till Philly gets back