Help fight REAL ID

[Garpman]

Originally Posted by ThunderingWind

Do you have a link to this speech or taped interview? I would like to see it.

I do not have an overall bad feeling towards Real ID. I think it can be a useful tool to help keep illegal residents and those that wish to over throw our government at bay. Sure there are problems with any new system but with time and open minds, they can be over come to everyone's satisfaction.

I, for one, would prefer having my passport stamped every time I visit Alabama and Kentucky. Everyone should have to prove they are allowed out. Same goes for Mexico and Canada.

You must like guns since you're a member of a gun forum.

Apply the same thinking you have to REAL ID to guns, and how the antis want to get rid of all of them.

Everything will start off benign, it is for your "safety", it's to "fight terrorism", it's to "curtail illegal immigrants access". No, it's to get your compliance through FEAR.

It "only" applies to getting on planes for now, but once they get a little taste of their power, you can bet your ass it'll apply to everything essential in modern life so that simply going about living one single day will be IMPOSSIBLE without one.

Imagine not being able to bank without REAL ID. Imagine not being able to travel freely throughout the country without REAL ID (it already does this with air travel) but with planes, trains, ferries, boats. Imagine every purchase or financial transaction you make being tracked and logged.

Imagine the low level worker who has to log, and maintain, or do whatever with all of this information and numbers making a MISTAKE with someone who committed a crime. Now try getting that fixed by the bureacracy, while you wait behind a cell of course. Also imagine that something this big would of course require forming another LARGE federal govt. agency complete with bumbling idiots as employees and corrupt officials as heads to build, fix, and maintain this system with LARGE sums of money. Where do you think this money is going to come from?

This isn't your typical cliche "tinfoil hat" wearing conspiracy. REAL ID is as close to "papers please" as you can get. And the "please" is just a formality.

Generations of people escaping communist or fascist regimes from Europe, Asia or wherever did not come here to have their children and grandchildren be subject to something like REAL ID. I, and all others before me didn't wear a uniform of our armed forces to be subject to something like REAL ID.

Something like this is very dangerous because it can turn Americans against each other. Those who believe in the Constitution and freedom and oppose REAL ID against those who currently are on the "good side", soldiers, LEO's, "righteous" political figures, will all be confused into believing that WE are the "criminals" for opposing it. "Oh, they all must be enemies of the state and have something to hide, why else would they not sign up?"

To see how easy it is, see Katrina. Soldiers, police and other LEO walking down the streets of America, kicking down American's doors for no reason, confiscating their property for no reason, and every one of them believed they were doing their duty, and serving their "country". I don't care if this situation was blown out of proportion. One family who had their property taken without just cause, is one family TOO MUCH.

I've seen other people who share your views in not believing REAL ID is a big deal on other gun forums, and honestly, I am shocked.

It's not about whether or not you have something to hide, it's about PRINCIPLE.

[Philadelphia]

First the gov't disarms us so boxcutters can be used by terrorists to hijack airplanes so then we need special biometric IDs to thwart the terrorists and then . . . .

So knowing who the terrorist is (was) for sure after the bomb on his chest explodes adds to our domestic security

How about we just train the citizenry in the safe and efficient use of arms and pass out the battle rifles and ammunition to every law abiding loyal citizen. We won't need IDs to fight terrorism.

This is just more crap to make people feel more dependant on the gov't in every aspect of their lives.

Did those who initially secured our freedom and security pass out IDs or muskets?

The gov't has lost its mind (again).

end of rant.

[Emptymag]

It's called reading between the lines.

[FromMyColdDeadHands]

Obviously I am in good company here. Some thing else ya'll may want to check out is the HR 1055 "Domestic and Homegrown Terrorism Act" Basically this proposed bill creates a commission which reports the president on "extremist" views and has the authority to enforce its findings. There is a weakly written civil rights clause which would easily be circumvented by a govt. attorney. This abuse of our constitutional rights must stop now, we are the fast track to socialism!!!

[Morel42]

Originally Posted by ThunderingWind

I, for one, would prefer having my passport stamped every time I visit Alabama and Kentucky. Everyone should have to prove they are allowed out. Same goes for Mexico and Canada.

This statement absolutely stunned me..

Right of free passage is one of the very cornerstones of a free society. The freedom to go and come as you want, anywhere, without being asked questions or being tracked.

Once this freedom is gone, it's impossible to protect any other freedom..

[Garpman]

Originally Posted by ThunderingWind

No, I do not like guns, I respect them. I fully support the right of a legal citizen owning firearms as stated in the constituion. I joined this forum to learn more about PA since I recently moved and needed to know the firearms situation as I was bringing a truck load across state lines from my previous residence.

Maybe it is because I feel I have nothing to hide that makes me feel there is noting inherently (sp?) worng with Real ID.

I truely beleive the program is valid. It is up to the people to see that the government does not use it for the neferious reason you suggest.

I mentioned that in my moderately lengthy post. It is exactly this type of mentality that aids in the erosion of our liberties and freedoms.

I have nothing to hide either, I've been through numerous background checks for a number of reasons, I was given a security clearance even. I'm a OIF veteran, all things that make me a "law abiding", "good little citizen". And yet I vehemently oppose REAL ID or anything remotely close to it on basis of principle.

It is a selfish attitude that fails to see the big picture. Furthermore, it allows for proponents of such legislation to realize their goals by a self fulfilling methodology. You see, even within this discussion between you and the other opponents of this act, we have already started a "civil war" (again mentioned in my above post). I fear the vast majority of Americans will think like you, "I have nothing to hide, I don't see why it's a big deal." and we will inevitably be turned against each other.

Here's a cliche from a time in our not too distant past:

First they came for the Communists and I did not speak out because I was not a Communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the weak, the lame, and the homosexuals, and I did not speak out for I was none of the above.

Then they came for the Jews and again, I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.

When they came for me, there was no one left to speak out.

Here are simpler scenarios for you to understand the principle of this matter. Again you have nothing to hide. Would you then feel comfortable for the police to just come in to your home unannounced and search it? I mean, you have NOTHING to hide, why not? You don't make, write, speak, or listen to anything that hints at terroristic acts, so would you then be comfortable with the FBI or other authorities to monitor your conversations with your friends and family, your phone calls, or your emails? Why not? You have NOTHING to hide right?

REAL ID seeks and does limit your mobility. You are not allowed to travel by air without REAL ID. Once they see how easily people comply, WHAT else will you not be "ALLOWED" to do without one?

Here's another view of your reasoning as it is applied the same way by anti gun legislators. People use guns to committ crimes or to do harm in general. Should that make all guns prohibited? And here's the version of "you" (as in, "I have nothing to hide"). "Well gee, I don't use or see a use for handguns or "assault style" weapons, I guess we can go ahead and ban them." And when they do, what do you think is going to happen next? Hint, see Nazi Germany cliche example above.

You cannot be selective about freedom. You can't call for the banning of certain speech because you don't agree with it. You can't call for the banning of an assembly because you don't stand for their cause. You can't ban guns because there are those who use them for harm.

This country throughout the generations has been hypocritical in its ideals and its actual practices, but people struggled hard to make things right. Everyone who has ever worn a uniform in our history worked and fought hard to uphold these ideals, and to share them with less fortunate peoples living under repressive regimes in foreign lands, be it fascism, Nazism, or Communism.

To me, not understanding the impact something like REAL ID has denigrates all those who served this country upholding and promoting its ideals of freedom. It denigrates all those who worked so hard to end oppression, slavery, segregation, get civil rights, women's rights, voter rights, etc.

Rant NOT over.

[ChamberedRound]

Originally Posted by ThunderingWind

I am sorry but I do not see Sec. Chertoff using those words in the link you posted or the portion you posted.

Please show me where he said "shut up and lay down to." That is the only part I am interested in.

He didn't say that, that's why I didn't quote him. If he actually used those words, I would have quoted him, or used quotations in my statement. Sorry if you misunderstood. I'll admit that it's a paraphrase in which I interjected by own interpretation, but it was a paraphrase and not a quote. My intention was to convey my belief that Chertoff is being quite smug about a topic which I believe deserves a little more reverence. After all, it's not every day that we implement policies whose intention is to record and store the identity and personal details (fingerprints, DNA, etc.) of every American citizen for use/abuse by the government.

[Archiver]

The SAD thing is when I got the Rohrer email i thought it was a JOKE a friend sent with a phony Email address. This real ID stuff is very CREEPY!

[josh]

I for one would like to thank ThunderWind.

I would like to thank you for openly admitting you are among those who would love the opportunity to destroy all this country was founded on.

Thank you for having the guts to show that you would gladly be subservient to a tyrannical government as long as you do not have to take personal responsibility for your life.

Thank you for proving,yet again,that the real threat we face are fanatical worshipers of the police state not Muslim wackos.

And lastly thank you for making me so incredibly sick in my stomach I cannot eat. I need to lose some weight.

[WhiteFeather]

Just got this updated email info and wanted to share it with all

For my bet PA most in PA government would have done this already except for the feds not paying for 100%, so for most it's just over who is going to pay for our chains only.

Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 1:23 PM
Subject: Committee Reports - House Intergovernmental Affairs - Real ID Act 1-23-08


(Note: Press release from Rep. Rohrer follows below)

Real ID Act:

PennDOT announced that the U.S. Department of Homeland Security has granted the Commonwealth an extension to implement the requirements of the federal REAL ID Act. PennDOT applied for the extension to complete a full analysis of the final REAL ID regulations, which were issued January 11. The extension allows Pennsylvania residents to continue using PA driver’s license and identification cards as ID for official federal purposes through December 31, 2009. The final REAL ID regulations are effective May 11, 2008.


House Intergovernmental Affairs Committee

HARRISBURG - (1/23/08, 10 a.m., City Council Chambers, 10 N. 2nd Street)

The House Intergovernmental Affairs Committee held a public hearing on the Real ID Act of 2005.
Members in attendance included Chairman W. Curtis Thomas (D-Philadelphia), Minority Chairman David Steil (R-Bucks), Rep. Ron Buxton (D-Dauphin), Rep. Duane Milne (R-Chester), Rep. Scott Perry (R-York), Rep. Keith Gillespie (R-York), Rep. Mike Fleck (R-Huntingdon), Rep. Carl Mantz (R-Berks), Rep. Michael O'Brien (D-Philadelphia), Rep. Todd Eachus (D-Luzerne), Rep. John Bear (R-Lancaster), Rep. William Keller (D-Philadelphia) and Rep. Kerry Benninghoff (R-Centre).

Darrell Williams, Director, Real ID Program, Office of Policy and Development, U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS), explained to the committee Real ID is based on a recommendation of the 9/11 Commission. "It is a recommendation to help deter future terrorist acts that the Department of Homeland Security strongly supports," he stated. He added that driver's licenses provide cover to terrorists to operate within the United States. Williams went over the specifics of several key areas of the program, including requirements of the final rule that all states must follow to comply with the Real ID Act, funding, DMV database connectivity, and privacy. He also addressed the issue of identity theft and how Real ID will make it more difficult for thieves to steal information and create false identities.

Kurt Myers, Deputy Secretary for Safety Administration, PennDOT, told the committee his agency acknowledges the concept and principles of the Real ID Act and recognizes the fundamental importance of establishing proper identity when issuing a driver's license or photo identification card. He noted that PennDOT began an in-depth analysis of Real ID regulations earlier in January, as soon as DHS issued the 284-page document. The department's analysis is not complete and he estimated it would take several months for a full review to be done and for recommendations to be made on how Pennsylvania could best comply. Myers reviewed the procedures both a U.S. citizen and a non-citizen must follow to obtain a driver's license or photo identification card. He noted that PennDOT conducts facial recognition checks to ensure applicants don't have more than one driver's license or identification card issued under another identity. He noted that effective May 11, only Real ID driver's licenses and photo identification cards will be accepted by federal agencies for official purposes, such as boarding an aircraft. He said the state plans to file for an extension so it can complete its analysis of the regulations. If the extension is granted, Pennsylvanians will be able to use their current identification for federal official purposes until December 31, 2009.

Jeremy Meadows, Senior Policy Director, Trade and Transportation/State and Federal Relations, National Conference of State Legislatures, said final rules for implementing Real ID are more flexible than the original draft regulations. Based on this flexibility, DHS has estimated the 10-year costs to states at just under $4 billion, down from the original $14 billion estimate. He noted, however, that DHS has never requested funding for state costs in the President's budgets since the act was signed into law. Meadows said there are a number of measures to either "fix and fund" or repeal Real ID at both the state and federal level. He also noted a number of states have passed laws that strictly prohibit agencies from complying with the law and a number of others have passed resolutions urging Congress to repeal Real ID. So far, only Indiana and Nevada have expressly decided to bring their states closer to compliance, Meadows said.

Rep. Fleck asked if there is a facial recognition system in place. Myers said there is technology and a database in place that can come up with potential matches to identify people who may be applying for a driver's license who already have a license in another state under another identification.

Rep. Eachus asked for a comment on confidentiality and identity theft. Myers said the issue of identify theft is growing and thieves are getting more sophisticated in their methods of stealing identify from others or creating false identities. PennDOT is actively addressing the issue by creating secure documents and licenses. The department also checks identification from other states to cut down on identity theft. Rep. Eachus asked if increasing concerns with identity theft make it more important that the state comply with Real ID requirements over the objections of opponents who are concerned with privacy issues. Myers said PennDOT supports the principals of Real ID, but is still reviewing DHS's requirements and is not prepared to take a position to either support or oppose its implementation at this time.

Rep. Babette Josephs (D-Philadelphia), Chairman of the House State Government Committee, was in attendance and wanted to know what PennDOT's does when a trans-gendered individual, whose current gender does not match the gender on their birth certificate, wants a driver's license or photo identification card. Myers said he didn't know and offered to get back to her on how that is handled. Rep. Josephs inquired how PennDOT handles people who lose all their identity papers in a fire. Myers said his agency does have regulations in place and sends a mobile emergency response vehicle to the site of a fire or natural disaster to assist with replacing licenses and other documents and helps those people with validation. Rep. Josephs asked for an estimate of how many trans-gendered individuals apply for licenses. Myers didn't think statistics are kept on that and the information would be available only on a one-on-one basis.

Rep. Buxton wanted clarification on Myers' testimony where it says people born before a certain date must be able to board an airplane with their current driver's licenses. Myers said the extension filed for will enable people to get on a plane, enter a nuclear power plant or a federal facility. He explained those born before December 1, 1964 will have until 2014 to get a Real ID. Those born after December 1, 1964 will have until 2017 to get a Real ID. This phase-in will prevent the program from being inundated with requests for licenses all at once. He noted that DHS has said those over 50 are less likely to commit identity theft or commit terrorist acts. Williams said the Transportation Security Administration (TSA) will know which states have filed for an extension and will know which passengers will be required to have a Real ID and which ones will be able to use their regular, state-issued driver's licenses.

Minority Chairman Steil asked if PennDOT has a timeline to analyze the Real ID Act requirements and when recommendations on how to comply might be ready. Myers said it would be several months until the department's analysis of the DHS requirements is done, and it will be several more months until it could make recommendations.
Rep. Gillespie wondered what the department's policy is for those whose religious beliefs forbid having their picture taken. Myers noted that Real ID has some flexibility and options on what can be issued and that if someone comes to PennDOT for a license or photo ID, they are giving their consent to the agency to do what it is required to do, including taking the individual's picture.

Rep. Perry queried how much input Pennsylvania had in planning Real ID. Myers said his agency worked with DHS and the American Motor Vehicle Administration to set up guidelines once it was passed by Congress, but the original recommendation came out of the 9/11 Commission. Rep. Perry asked if there is a financial penalty for not complying with the Real ID requirements. Myers said that needs clarification, but it is currently unfunded by Congress. He said there are some grants available to help with paying for Real ID. He also said the downside is that without a Real ID license, citizens might not be able to board a plane or access a federal facility. Rep. Perry noted that citizens will have to decide for themselves if they want their rights infringed upon through being required to have a Real ID.

Rep. Milne inquired as to the advantage of having a Real ID and why the state should opt into the program. Myers said the advantage could be determined better after PennDOT completes its analysis and enhanced security is a reason the state would opt into the program.

Rep. Josephs asked how DHS will deal with trans-gendered individuals. Williams said after working on the regulations with various states, the American Civil Liberties Union and other private groups, it was decided to leave the issue to each state to decide. Rep. Josephs asked how much this would cost in Pennsylvania. Myers said a full-cost analysis has not been determined.

Rep. Rohrer wanted to know if any provisions of Real ID are already in place. Myers said PennDOT is already addressing three levels of security, overt, covert and forensic and is making sure a name that appears in its database doesn't appear anywhere else which would compromise an individual's identity. Rep. Rohrer asked if digital photos of individuals are biometric and machine readable. Myers replied that it depends on what you mean by biometric and the photos are machine readable. Rep. Rohrer expressed concern that the Real ID cards are becoming an international card, allowing entry into foreign countries. Williams said he was talking about another travel program and any one state that does not comply with Real ID requirements and issue licenses to its citizens is leaving other states vulnerable.

Rep. Keller asked if DHS deals with the Transport Workers Identity Card ( TWIC) program and if there is any coordination with that program and Real ID. Williams said DHS has an office that deals with TWIC and coordinates the requirements of the program with those of Real ID. Rep. Keller noted the TWIC program costs its members $140 while the cost of a Real ID is anticipated to be substantially less. Williams estimated the Real ID card cost would average out to $8.30.

Minority Chairman Steil noted there are 18 benchmarks to comply with Real ID and how many the state meets now. Myers said the state already complies with 11 of the 18 benchmarks. He further asked how Real ID enhances the ability to identify illegal immigrants. Myers said an illegal immigrant can't get a Real ID because they wouldn't have the necessary legal documents required.

Rep. Milne asked Williams to have DHS Secretary Chertoff write a letter to the committee explaining why it had not requested funding from Congress to go to the states to help comply with Real ID.

Mark Lerner of the Stop Real ID Coalition was given time to express his group's concerns with the program.

Ralph Johns, a private citizen from southern Lancaster County stood to say he is a resident of the sovereign state of Pennsylvania and not of the United States and expressed his concern with allowing the federal government to force this program on the states and their citizens.

Chairman Thomas said it will be up to the Legislature to determine whether Pennsylvania acts to comply with the Real ID program and then announced the committee will be holding future hearings on the Real ID Act of 2005 in Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Scranton and Erie.

Intergovernmental Affairs Committee Summary of the Real ID Act of 2005

Rick Morrison, PA Legislative Services

- 30 -

Rep. Samuel Rohrer
128th District
Pennsylvania House of Representatives
(610) 775-5130
(717) 787-8550
www.SamRohrer.com
Contact: Ty McCauslin
House Republican Public Relations
(717) 772-9979
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
January 24, 2008

Rohrer Says Federal Real ID Director's Testimony Leaves
Far Too Many Civil Liberties Questions Unanswered

HARRISBURG - After participating in the first of a series of statewide Pennsylvania House Intergovernmental Affairs hearings regarding the federal Real Identification program in Harrisburg on Wednesday, Rep. Sam Rohrer (R-Berks) concluded that the testimony offered by U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS) Real-ID Program Director Darell Williams left far too many important civil liberties questions unanswered.

"The lack of complete, compelling or convincing responses from Director Williams when directly questioned by myself and members of the House Intergovernmental Affairs committee only serves to underscore concerns that this largely unfunded $11 billion federal mandate contradicts and compromises our most fundamental constitutional, religious and civil liberties," said Rohrer. "Whether you travel, collect federal benefits, attend church, vote, own a gun, or even drive a car, every law-abiding Pennsylvania citizen should be concerned about defending our most fundamental personal freedoms against Real ID."

Touted as a counter-terrorism measure by the 9-11 Commission, Congress passed the REAL ID Act of 2005 to establish national standards for state-issued drivers' licenses, require all motor vehicle departments to keep copies of personal identity documents and force states to link their databases of individual driver information. Failure to comply means that any U.S. citizen not possessing a REAL ID compliant driver's license or other type of approved government identification, will be unable to board commercial aircraft, enter federal buildings or obtain services from the federal government.

The following is a short list of questions posed by Rohrer that Williams either answered insufficiently or refused to respond to entirely:

· · Is the national identification card established by the Real ID Act in effect a de facto international identification card?

· · If the DHS follows through with its proposals to mandate additional Real ID requirements such as the collection of biometric data, including fingerprints, retinal scans, and placing Radio Frequency Identification (RFID) chips in every American's driver's license where will it be stored? Who will be granted access?

· · Will any collected biometric data be offered to foreign governments or corporations to establish an international database? What if the wrong person or terrorist organization obtains access to the most personal, biometric data of American citizens?

"The lack of forthrightness of Director Williams on behalf of the Department of Homeland Security proved once again that Real ID will do nothing to reduce identity theft, address border control or guarantee safe and secure entry or otherwise defend our nation against terror," said Rohrer. "What is even more clear is the one thing that Real ID will accomplish: allowing our most sensitive and personal information, such as name, age, address and social security numbers to be made easily accessible both nationally and internationally.

"Further, there are no safeguards contained in this act that will sufficiently guarantee that massive national and international databases made possible by Real ID will not provide convenient one-stop shopping for identity thieves, corrupt or enemy governments, and terrorists alike. Perhaps most troubling of all, Mr. Williams failed to establish precisely what changes and additions the Secretary of Homeland Security can make to the list of locations and activities that require a Real ID license. It is simply unacceptable to give carte blanche to the DHS or any government agency to limit American citizens' activities due to simply not having a Real ID card. Such restrictions would make sense if we were dealing with a criminal, not a law-abiding, freedom-loving American." added Rohrer.

Another major topic of today's hearing was Rohrer's Real ID Repeal Legislation House Bill 1351, that if enacted would strictly prohibit the governor, the Department of Transportation or any other state agency from complying with any:

· · Provision of the REAL ID Act of 2005, or the provision of any other federal law, regulation or policy that requires compliance with the REAL ID Act of 2005.

· · Federal law, regulation, or policy that would compromise the economic privacy or
biometric data for any Pennsylvania resident.

Furthermore, this bill would grant either the governor or the state attorney general the authority to file an action in the appropriate court of jurisdiction to challenge the constitutionality or legality of the REAL ID Act of 2005.

"It is my hope that today's hearing and those to be held across the Commonwealth in the coming weeks will continue to expose Real ID for what it truly is: America's Next National Security Crisis," said Rohrer. "Passing my legislation to pre-empt Pennsylvania from complying with this fiscally irresponsible and invasive measure is a critical first step to defending and taking back our most cherished personal liberties, that have been taken for granted for far too long."

For more information, view Representative Rohrer's special REAL ID Alert newsletter at SamRohrer.com.