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  #1 (permalink)  
Old January 3rd, 2011, 09:26 AM
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Default Carry at work -- a prototype law for PA?

There have been numerous threads concerning carry at work and guns in private vehicles on company property. I've researched a number of human resources web sites and found that the biggest (and pretty much only) reason given for forbidding weapons is liability to the company should the unthinkable happen. It has been suggested by some that the correct approach is not to force employers to allow carry or storage in private vehicles, but to eliminate that liability. I was reviewing the carry laws in -- of all places -- Ohio, and came across this law:

Quote:
OHIO REVISED CODE 2923.126

(C)(1) Nothing in this section shall negate or restrict a rule, policy, or practice of a private employer that is not a private college, university, or other institution of higher education concerning or prohibiting the presence of firearms on the private employer’s premises or property, including motor vehicles owned by the private employer. Nothing in this section shall require a private employer of that nature to adopt a rule, policy, or practice concerning or prohibiting the presence of firearms on the private employer’s premises or property, including motor vehicles owned by the private employer.

(2)(a) A private employer shall be immune from liability in a civil action for any injury, death, or loss to person or property that allegedly was caused by or related to a licensee bringing a handgun onto the premises or property of the private employer, including motor vehicles owned by the private employer, unless the private employer acted with malicious purpose. A private employer is immune from liability in a civil action for any injury, death, or loss to person or property that allegedly was caused by or related to the private employer’s decision to permit a licensee to bring, or prohibit a licensee from bringing, a handgun onto the premises or property of the private employer. As used in this division, “private employer” includes a private college, university, or other institution of higher education.
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Old January 3rd, 2011, 09:56 AM
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Default Re: Carry at work -- a prototype law for PA?

OK law would seem to be much stronger WRT private vehicle storage in that it mandates the ability to have a firearm in your vehicle whereby the Ohio seems to allow but not mandate. Not saying on which side I'm on regarding carry v. property right issue but OK certainly didn't mince words.

Quote:
§21-1289.7a. Transporting or Storing Firearms in Locked Motor Vehicle on Private Premises – Prohibition Proscribed – Liability Enforcement.
A. No person, property owner, tenant, employer, or business entity shall maintain, establish, or enforce any policy or rule that has the effect of prohibiting any person, except a convicted felon, from transporting and storing firearms in a locked motor vehicle, or from transporting and storing firearms locked in or locked to a motor vehicle on any property set aside for any motor vehicle.

B. No person, property owner, tenant, employer, or business entity shall be liable in any civil action for occurrences which result from the storing of firearms in a locked motor vehicle on any property set aside for any motor vehicle, unless the person, property owner, tenant, employer, or owner of the business entity commits a criminal act involving the use of the firearms. The provisions of this subsection shall not apply to claims pursuant to the Workers’ Compensation Act.

C. An individual may bring a civil action to enforce this section. If a plaintiff prevails in a civil action related to the personnel manual against a person, property owner, tenant, employer or business for a violation of this section, the court shall award actual damages, enjoin further violations of this section, and award court costs and attorney fees to the prevailing plaintiff.

D. As used in this section, “motor vehicle” means any automobile, truck, minivan, sports utility vehicle, motorcycle, motor scooter, and any other vehicle required to be registered under the Oklahoma Vehicle License and Registration Act.
Added by Laws 2004, c. 39, § 1, eff. Nov. 1, 2004. Amended by Laws 2005, c. 448, § 1, eff. Nov. 1, 2005.
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Old January 3rd, 2011, 11:15 AM
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Default Re: Carry at work -- a prototype law for PA?

The Ohio code; OHIO REVISED CODE 2923.126 C(1) does not tell the private employer what policy, or rule the employer has to follow with regards to firearms carry on to the employer's property.

2(a) eliminates any liability of the employer with regards to the employer's policy, or rule on firearms.

OK law states explicitly that a private employer, property owner, etc, can not prohibit the carry of legally possessed firearms from a person's vehicle.

Two different laws!
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Old January 3rd, 2011, 11:33 AM
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Default Re: Carry at work -- a prototype law for PA?

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Originally Posted by Gun View Post
OK law states explicitly that a private employer, property owner, etc, can not prohibit the carry of legally possessed firearms from a person's vehicle.
I see probem with that. With all the sympathy to the legitimate gun carriers like myself, I don't think that goverment should have right to tell us what we can and can't do on OUR property.
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Old January 3rd, 2011, 11:56 AM
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Default Re: Carry at work -- a prototype law for PA?

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Originally Posted by Metz View Post
I see probem with that. With all the sympathy to the legitimate gun carriers like myself, I don't think that government should have right to tell us what we can and can't do on OUR property.
That's the fundamental difference. Oklahoma and a few other states dictate that you must allow employees to have a gun in their vehicle on the property. Ohio leaves it up to the employer, but addresses the most common argument: the company's liability will be less if they can say "we told them not to do that." Ohio's is broader in that it also applies to employees carrying on the job.

Last edited by donm; January 3rd, 2011 at 12:41 PM.
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Old January 3rd, 2011, 12:36 PM
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Default Re: Carry at work -- a prototype law for PA?

OHIO REVISED CODE 2923.126
"A private employer is immune from liability in a civil action for any injury, death, or loss to person or property that allegedly was caused by or related to the private employer’s decision to permit a licensee to bring, or prohibit a licensee from bringing, a handgun onto the premises or property of the private employer."

Given that prohibition of carry on an employer's property makes one more susceptible to attack, does anyone know if the current Workman's Comp laws provide for coverage should an employee be attacked on company property, including the parking lot??

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Old January 3rd, 2011, 12:47 PM
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Default Re: Carry at work -- a prototype law for PA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by donm View Post
There have been numerous threads concerning carry at work and guns in private vehicles on company property. I've researched a number of human resources web sites and found that the biggest (and pretty much only) reason given for forbidding weapons is liability to the company should the unthinkable happen. It has been suggested by some that the correct approach is not to force employers to allow carry or storage in private vehicles, but to eliminate that liability. I was reviewing the carry laws in -- of all places -- Ohio, and came across this law:

Some might have missed this thread with actually dealing with this very subject with changing PA law, so you might want to review this one and read past language of PA bill HB 2049


Rep Pyle had introduced HB 2049 in the 2009-2010 session.

Spoke with Rep Jeff Pyle right before christmas and Jeff is indeed reintroducing the "PARKING LOT" in the 2011-2012 session.

No sponsorship memo has gone out yet, but soon will be released.

Really could use everyone help gather sponsors then, IF you want this concept passed in PA you will have the chance to do so or NOT.


donm you are correct that most companies don't allow this for liability reasons.

Rep Pyle bill provides that any employer that allows firearms locked in vehicles on their property (parking lot) would enjoy civil liability protection for any misuse of lawfully owned firearms, something that no one current has in PA.

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Old January 3rd, 2011, 01:02 PM
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Default Re: Carry at work -- a prototype law for PA?

I don't think we need another thread to re-hash the employers rights (or not) question. Many of us will continue to disagree on that. The Ohio law leaves that decision up to the employer but addresses the liability question, not only in the parking lot but in the workplace as well. Basically it peels away the most commonly given (among HR people) reason for not allowing legal carry in the workplace. That would hopefully convince some companies, but of course most will move on to the next layer of "reasoning" based on an intensive legal/business analysis of numerous episodes of "Law and Order."
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Old January 3rd, 2011, 01:07 PM
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Default Re: Carry at work -- a prototype law for PA?

I would think that many employers would be open to the idea (mine included) if the liability nightmare was not there.
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Old January 3rd, 2011, 02:51 PM
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Default Re: Carry at work -- a prototype law for PA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by donm View Post
I don't think we need another thread to re-hash the employers rights (or not) question. Many of us will continue to disagree on that. The Ohio law leaves that decision up to the employer but addresses the liability question, not only in the parking lot but in the workplace as well. Basically it peels away the most commonly given (among HR people) reason for not allowing legal carry in the workplace. That would hopefully convince some companies, but of course most will move on to the next layer of "reasoning" based on an intensive legal/business analysis of numerous episodes of "Law and Order."
People can re hash everything on here PAFOA to the point of stillness, with no real intent of ever following through where it matters or have no say in the outcome. Still they will argue sometimes just be disagreeable or so it would seem.

Only wish people would be as active in actually doing something constructive, when it does matter or where they could make a differance.


In the real world Rep Pyle bill is going to be reintroduced his "parking lot" bill whether people want argue how many fairies can dance on the head of pin.

Now, Anyone can take a day off of work go schedule a sit down meeting and ask the PRIME sponsor to amend or change section of wording in a proposed bill.

Been there, done that for many years, so have many Others at a support level 99% would never do. Most here on PAFOA haven’t tried that or ever done that let alone have the conviction of following through their beliefs with that level of commitment to support the cause they are so passionate about. (Hoping many of you do start doing this more often and coming to one of our legislative lobbying events to learn how to do this if you don't know how to)

That is what it takes sometimes to change the course of proposed legislation, sometime all you can accomplish is a controlled crash landing, getting the really bad stuff removed so it neutral in effect, other time you can have some real positive results it all depends how hard you are willing to fight and how you present it.

It’s the hidden cost many have been paying to try to keep our rights, that few ever want to ever cover the bill with their time and actions. Let alone want to be involved with as a unpaid volunteer. Its much easier to find a reason not to do this or that unpleasnt task, rather than to take your time to go to HBG let alone opening up your wallet paying for the adventure out of your pocket.


Still since many people on PAFOA kept bring up the same subject without reading the proposed bill (using search engine) or worse YET to even know of ANY attempt to legislatively correct the problem prior to making a post.

Seems like far too many people are not paying attention one way or another yet people will still argue in many cases without taking the detail time to read the bill and understand how it interfaces with other statues in existing law.

That is one of the short slightness of many to play cookie cutting with another states law crafted to suit and interface with their existing laws. When you do this without spending the necessary time to at least research what possible negative outcomes could occur it has the possibility to create disastrous consequences when it become law. hence the reason why we have many badly worded one now.


Not that another legislator couldn't offer another version of similar bill as donm cite a OHIO bill, (or another states version as there are many) then its up to which version has the most good for PA and which one moves in committee.

This is why they offer / have public hearing to hash out the stuff at the capital in committees where it actually matters to address problems people have with the wording and the states hired legal do the research on how it interfaces with existing PA law.



IF you (anyone of PAFOA) have a better version of a proposed bill ALL you have to be is that guy or that gal willing to take the time to sit down with meeting with Rep, spend hundreds of hours if that's what it takes to get it pass.

Just don't be a debeat dad, with "a idea" and expect someone else to run with your "great" idea, to do what you should be doing after all, its you idea and if you don't care enough, are not willing to invest your time, and efforts in your idea to do what it takes, don't ever expect someone else to care more about your really good idea than you do.

Really why should you expect some else do more than you?

Let alone expect that from a politician of all people least likely to run with your idea.

You by your actions or inaction give real value to what you hold dear.

Still people will keep making post on PAFOA or make a statement a gun club / gun show with another really good idea for a law or a rewrite to the UFA expecting someone to do something that won't, even to give their time do themselves.

Is this not a part of a bigger problem with most gun onwers?

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