Infighting threatens imminent avalanche of gun control in PA

[Murf_The_Surf]

-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Barniskis [mailto:adbco@netaxs.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 7:55 PM
To: first-freedom@yahoogroups.com
Subject: HB 1744


Friends:

I've been confused.

It seems our Tough-On-Crime PKBA groups find a lot of subtle things
in this legislation that require debate and pussy-footing (with a
capital PUSSY) diplomacy.

IT'S GUN CONTROL, DAMMIT! OPPOSE IT!

Or doncha think you can deliver the rank-and-file resistance you all
threaten?

--Andy

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++

Greg Murphy responds:

Andy,

You indeed are confused. You say the law doesn't matter and the grass roots don't matter and that you are on top of things.

HB 1744 is new to you, but Harry Schneider (PSA) and Kim Stolfer (ACSL) have been opposing HB 1744 for several months - just as they have been opposing several other bills that are even more dangerous.

I know this because I have been working with them. Usually, when they oppose a bill, it doesn't get out of committee - that was the specific complaint of the Black Caucus and the reason for the three day 'Committee of the Whole' last year - to let the whole House debate the bills that Schneider and Stolfer were bottling up in committee. That is the reason that Dwight Evans ripped into Daryl Metcalfe on the House floor.

Andy, congratulate yourself. Your efforts to convince the legislature that they have nothing to fear from the grass roots coalition seems to have emboldened them and they are testing the waters.

The games that you played with Rep. Bob Godshall seem to be paying off. Schneider and Stolfer isolated Act 17 godfather Godshall and assembled unofficial pro-gun leadership using Metcalfe and others. The Chairman of the Judiciary Committee told the press that the grass roots gun leadership was preventing him from passing gun control and Jeff Knox wrote praise for the grass roots leadership in Pennsylvania. You wrote Rep. Godshall in an effort to undermine Jeff Knox's praise about the grass roots leadership in Pennsylvania. Godshall copied the entire Republican caucus with his response that he hasn't heard from anyone but the NRA in ten years. This proves that Schneider and Stolfer have been successful in isolating Quisling leadership, but what you did was convince enough legislators that if the NRA gives them a pass, they have nothing to fear from the grass roots.

Well done Andy!

Andy, as additional proof that you are confused, lets go back to your oft-repeated statement "the law doesn’t matter." If the law doesn't matter as
you say, why do you care about what laws pass? Could it be that the law
does matter? Could it be that Andy doesn’t matter unless he is
undermining those who have been holding back the tide of gun control?


Greg

[WhiteFeather]

War is hell

Nice post, IF you get a reply please post it.....

+1 Murf_The_Surf

Here is the Jeff Knox article mentioned

http://www.pafoa.org/forum/pennsylva...activists.html

[Bill Ricca]

I will not bad mouth the NRA, it has served us well in the past. However, I am a strong believer that fighting is best done at the local level. Years ago gun owners ignored the threat and said "I support the NRA, they will handle it". A very small percentage ever communicated with their reps, and even fewer donated to the cause.

Today along with John Brison and Jack Iannantuono of the Lehigh Valley Firearms Coalition (LVFC) we are in constant contact with Kim Stolfer, our reps, and several others throughout the state. It will be a long job, but our goal is to get all the gun clubs and gun owners in our 4 counties connected through an internet network of communications.

Our plans are to have it up and running before the election of 2008.

http://www.levfc.org/legislators.htm

Bill Ricca
LVFC Webmaster

[Sebastian]

Years ago gun owners ignored the threat and said "I support the NRA, they will handle it". A very small percentage ever communicated with their reps, and even fewer donated to the cause.

Absolutely. Any group can only be effective when it's membership gets off it's rear and gets involved.

[brewguy]

Originally Posted by Sebastian

Years ago gun owners ignored the threat and said "I support the NRA, they will handle it". A very small percentage ever communicated with their reps, and even fewer donated to the cause.

Absolutely. Any group can only be effective when it's membership gets off it's rear and gets involved.

The point is we should not have to be involved in every single issue. If I have to worry about all the freaking people trying to take away my rights constantly I will have no life. I could easly spend all day every day just trying to defend my freedom. If this is the way it is going to be then we should just have a referendum vote on EVERY new law.

[Sebastian]

When I say "do something", I mean something as simple as writing your state and federal reps every once in a while over issues of concern to gun owners, or even voting. Pro-gun groups are important to the fight, but politicians won't pay attention if those groups don't bring votes to the table. Letting your representative know you care about gun rights is a simple thing people can do, but you'd be surprised by how few bother.

[Brick]

Gee guys. It's all very simple. At the national level I support the NRA to keep us informed of whats going on in Congress. At the State level I trust myself, the members of PAFOA like Whitefeather and Roy Jackson, and state/local organizations like ACSL to keep information about upcoming legislation flowing. BUT, I subscribe to and review PA's legislative activity regularly and I react to the legislation in a manner as I see fit and appropriate.. It's just this simple, if you are unwilling to let your views be known to your legislature, they will write bad law and you'll deserve it!

[NineseveN]

...and the reply...

Andy replies:

Hang on -- I can't remember the last time I've styled myself to be
anything but a commentator, and one that avoids most public forums,
at that, unless invited. The possible exception being when I speak in my
last official capacity, as the legislative chairman of my gun club. And
I've never said the grassroots don't matter; in fact I've said a time or
two that the grassroots is the ONLY thing that DOES matter, but they are kept
passive by all the people who style themselves as their "leaders," from the
NRA right on down to the regional and local groups bantering in back rooms
with selected legislators. The guys in the back rooms are NOT the
grassroots. They're generally the ones that prevent the grassroots from
being effective.

Pass along my congratulations to Harry, et al, for doing such a great job
of getting the word out about all that legislation they've been fighting so
hard. Even the people who forward their stuff to me seem to have missed
all of those alerts about (e.g.) HB1744, at least until quite recently. I'm
really glad they, personally, do such a sterling job of "bottling legislation
up in committee."

What happens when they fail? Where exactly does the grassroots come in,
at that point?

Incidentally, I failed to see the words "We oppose this legislation" in
that ACSL item about HB 1744. Was that an oversight, or are there amendments
to make this Good Legislation, massaged properly in some back room? So that
the grassroots can't be trusted to distinguish between Good Gun Control and
Bad Control, and our leadership might Lose Control of their personal intrigues
if the grassroots were told to oppose it?

I will allow Godshall's statement to stand on its face. "Isolate Quisling
leadership?" That's a pretty good cover for "I never heard of the people
who style themselves as leaders for all of Pennsylvania's gun owners." It
leads me to wonder exactly who is isolating who.

But even if it were true as stated, my frequent question remains, which I
will flesh out slightly: What controls the way legislators vote, other than
respect for what the grassroots VOTERS will do? And if they never heard
of anyone other than the NRA, who can seriously influence the gun owner vote
in PA, WHO exactly IS controlling them? Do we really want the Quislings to
be so "isolated" they never heard of anyone but the NRA who can oppose them?

Where has the power of a grassroots PA organization been demonstrated,
that any of them should respect? Or is their respect limited to being
for the magnificent, arcane gun wisdom of those backroom dealers -- that
most have been isolated from even hearing about?

Let's put it plainly -- was Godshall LYING, (and even I hope he was)
or was it TRUE he never heard of our leaders and their political
intrigues?

And you know perfectly well the contexts in which I say "Law doesn't
matter," and what I mean when I say that: Law affects you and me
when there are no greater political issues at stake; when there
ARE greater political interests -- or simply if we are poor or
powerless or unsophisticated or simple can't afford to access the
law -- it then becomes meaningless. And to that I would append
that the greater the political issues involved, the more expensive
and less accessible law becomes for the common man. For him it
becomes meaningless. If I'm wrong, just take the Uniform Firearms
Act down to the State Police and read them the sections about a firearms
registry. Or for an easier start, come to Montgomery County or
Bucks County, etc., and read the sheriffs the sections about the
limitations on what they can charge for a CCW. I did, here in Bucks,
but he must not have heard me right, because he's still charging nearly
double. It would appear The Law is meaningless, until someone spends
a bundle to make it mean something; in the interim the politicos
make a bundle, and that is what law usually is all about.

Last I have to say that your own sidekicks can attest that you are
giving me FAR too much credit. I am told that legislators assure
Serious Gun Rights Advocates that they regard me as "nothing but a
clown." So why are you all so worried? Laugh a liitle, along
with your legislator friends! How many divisions has Andy?
For Chrissake, I don't even have a website!

I have to say I'm glad for all your sakes you have a boogeyman to blame
if one of your intrigues go south; just like back in the days of the
20 Stalwarts Letter of Concern to the PSP, if *I'M* the best excuse
your "pro-gun" legislators can come up with for not producing for you guys --
and you believe that -- they must REALLY have you people buffaloed.

Or was the word "isolated?"


--Andy

[Sebastian]

I think that is very wise, Brick

[Sebastian]

Some of the people in this movement who enjoy doing little more than sit on the sidelines flinging pooh at others trying to accomplish something might as well be working for the other side. The worst thing that could happen to the pro-gun movement is to turn our squabbles into a circular firing squad.

Disagreement is inevitable, but some people have forgotten that we're all on the same side.