HB 1893 another chance at un-needed controls

[Brick]

Here's another one to add to the list of proposed laws to oppose. The short version of this is that anyone applying for a LTCF must have completed an approved firearms safety course within 6 months of making application. No credit offered for military training or police training or training recieved outside of state.

PRINTER'S NO. 2615


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF PENNSYLVANIA

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

HOUSE BILL
No. 1893 Session of 2007


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


INTRODUCED BY KENNEY, McGEEHAN, WHEATLEY, SABATINA, THOMAS,
ROSS, YOUNGBLOOD, HENNESSEY, O'NEILL, RUBLEY, BRENNAN,
LEVDANSKY, JOSEPHS, JAMES, K. SMITH AND FREEMAN,
OCTOBER 15, 2007


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

REFERRED TO COMMITTEE ON JUDICIARY, OCTOBER 15, 2007


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

AN ACT

1 Amending Title 18 (Crimes and Offenses) of the Pennsylvania
2 Consolidated Statutes, in firearms and other dangerous
3 articles, further providing for licenses for firearms.

4 The General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania
5 hereby enacts as follows:
6 Section 1. Section 6109(d) and (n) of Title 18 of the
7 Pennsylvania Consolidated Statutes are amended and the section
8 is amended by adding a subsection to read:
9 § 6109. Licenses.
10 * * *
11 (d) Sheriff to conduct investigation.--The sheriff to whom
12 the application is made shall:
13 (1) investigate the applicant's record of criminal
14 conviction;
15 (2) investigate whether or not the applicant is under
16 indictment for or has ever been convicted of a crime
17 punishable by imprisonment exceeding one year;



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 (3) investigate whether the applicant's character and
2 reputation are such that the applicant will not be likely to
3 act in a manner dangerous to public safety;
4 (4) investigate whether the applicant would be precluded
5 from receiving a license under subsection (e)(1) or section
6 6105(h) (relating to persons not to possess, use,
7 manufacture, control, sell or transfer firearms); [and]
8 (5) conduct a criminal background, juvenile delinquency
9 and mental health check following the procedures set forth in
10 section 6111 (relating to sale or transfer of firearms),
11 receive a unique approval number for that inquiry and record
12 the date and number on the application[.]; and
13 (6) investigate whether a nonrenewal applicant has
14 completed a safety training course as provided in subsection
15 (m.1).
16 * * *
17 (m.1) Safety training course.--In order to be eligible for a
18 license to carry a firearm, a nonrenewal applicant must
19 demonstrate successful completion of a safety training course.
20 (n) [Definition.--As used in this section, the term
21 "licensee" means an individual who is licensed to carry a
22 firearm under this section.] Definitions.--As used in this
23 section, the following words and phrases shall have the meanings
24 given to them in this subsection:
25 "Licensee." An individual who is licensed to carry a firearm
26 under this section.
27 "Nonrenewal applicant." An individual who applies for a
28 license to carry a firearm. This shall not include any applicant
29 who has, on the date of application, a lawfully issued license
30 to carry a firearm which is unexpired or which has expired
20070H1893B2615 - 2 -


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 within six months prior to the date of application.
2 "Safety training course." A course of instruction in the
3 safe handling and operation of firearms, including:
4 (1) any National Rifle Association basic firearm course;
5 (2) any hunter education course approved by the
6 Executive Director of the Pennsylvania Game Commission; or
7 (3) any other firearm safety course approved by the
8 Attorney General of the Commonwealth.
9 Section 2. This act shall take effect in 60 days.

[Montanya]

The only thing that might come out of that good would be that perhaps now all the other states that have the training requirement will finally enter into reciprocity agreements with PA. Not that I think that is a good enough reason for this bill to go anywhere at all, but if I had to find any ray of sunshine in a pile of poo.

[coat4gun]

This bill would only serve to reduce the number of new CCW permit applications due to the additional hassle involved.

I have been trying to convince my wife to obtain a permit for several years now and there is no way she would apply if training is required. We do not want this.

We need to keep PA as an example to other more restrictive states that training should not be a requirement.

[Brick]

Jeez guys,

I was hoping this and other legislative alert threads would produce as much stir as the thread Banning Cellphone Use While Driving.

[NineseveN]

You're right man, somehow I totaly missed this one...we should obviously be opposed to this for a varierty of reasons.

[exceltoexcel]

Let's not just talk and talk about this....

I've done the leg work for you guys!

Write, my guess is maybe one person if that (other than me) will even bother to contact everyone on this list and their own personal legislators...

Here's where you find your local legislators so you can contact them all and tell them to vote against this....

http://www.legis.state.pa.us/index.cfm


Here are all the pages you have to go to to tell those that introduced the bill that you're not happy with this..


http://www.georgekenney.com/?section...ectiontree=105
http://www.pahouse.com/contact/viaLDPC.asp?district=173
http://www.pahouse.com/contact/viaLDPC.asp?district=173
http://www.pahouse.com/contact/viaLDPC.asp?district=174
http://www.pahouse.com/contact/viaLDPC.asp?district=181
http://www.repross.com/?sectionid=92&sectiontree=92
http://www.pahouse.com/contact/viaLDPC.asp?district=198
http://pageneralassembly.org/?sectionid=26
http://www.reponeill.com/?sectionid=38&sectiontree=38
http://www.carolerubley.com/?section...ectiontree=103
http://www.pahouse.com/contact/viaLDPC.asp?district=133
http://www.pahouse.com/contact/viaLDPC.asp?district=39
http://www.pahouse.com/contact/viaLDPC.asp?district=182
http://www.pahouse.com/contact/viaLDPC.asp?district=186
http://www.pahouse.com/contact/viaLDPC.asp?district=112
http://www.pahouse.com/contact/viaLDPC.asp?district=136

HOUSE BILL
No. 1893 Session of 2007


INTRODUCED BY KENNEY, McGEEHAN, WHEATLEY, SABATINA, THOMAS,
ROSS, YOUNGBLOOD, HENNESSEY, O'NEILL, RUBLEY, BRENNAN,
LEVDANSKY, JOSEPHS, JAMES, K. SMITH AND FREEMAN,

OCTOBER 15, 2007

REFERRED TO COMMITTEE ON JUDICIARY, OCTOBER 15, 2007

AN ACT

1 Amending Title 18 (Crimes and Offenses) of the Pennsylvania
2 Consolidated Statutes, in firearms and other dangerous
3 articles, further providing for licenses for firearms.

4 The General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania
5 hereby enacts as follows:
6 Section 1. Section 6109(d) and (n) of Title 18 of the
7 Pennsylvania Consolidated Statutes are amended and the section
8 is amended by adding a subsection to read:
9 § 6109. Licenses.
10 * * *
11 (d) Sheriff to conduct investigation.--The sheriff to whom
12 the application is made shall:
13 (1) investigate the applicant's record of criminal
14 conviction;
15 (2) investigate whether or not the applicant is under
16 indictment for or has ever been convicted of a crime
17 punishable by imprisonment exceeding one year;

1 (3) investigate whether the applicant's character and
2 reputation are such that the applicant will not be likely to
3 act in a manner dangerous to public safety;
4 (4) investigate whether the applicant would be precluded
5 from receiving a license under subsection (e)(1) or section
6 6105(h) (relating to persons not to possess, use,
7 manufacture, control, sell or transfer firearms); [and]
8 (5) conduct a criminal background, juvenile delinquency
9 and mental health check following the procedures set forth in
10 section 6111 (relating to sale or transfer of firearms),
11 receive a unique approval number for that inquiry and record
12 the date and number on the application[.]; and
13 (6) investigate whether a nonrenewal applicant has
14 completed a safety training course as provided in subsection
15 (m.1).
16 * * *
17 (m.1) Safety training course.--In order to be eligible for a
18 license to carry a firearm, a nonrenewal applicant must
19 demonstrate successful completion of a safety training course.
20 (n) [Definition.--As used in this section, the term
21 "licensee" means an individual who is licensed to carry a
22 firearm under this section.] Definitions.--As used in this
23 section, the following words and phrases shall have the meanings
24 given to them in this subsection:
25 "Licensee." An individual who is licensed to carry a firearm
26 under this section.
27 "Nonrenewal applicant." An individual who applies for a
28 license to carry a firearm. This shall not include any applicant
29 who has, on the date of application, a lawfully issued license
30 to carry a firearm which is unexpired or which has expired
20070H1893B2615 - 2 -


1 within six months prior to the date of application.
2 "Safety training course." A course of instruction in the
3 safe handling and operation of firearms, including:
4 (1) any National Rifle Association basic firearm course;
5 (2) any hunter education course approved by the
6 Executive Director of the Pennsylvania Game Commission; or
7 (3) any other firearm safety course approved by the
8 Attorney General of the Commonwealth.
9 Section 2. This act shall take effect in 60 days.

[brewguy]

I sent a note.

Check out www.congress.org I find it really easy to contact all of my PA reps with one click.

[LittleRedToyota]

yeah, i somehow missed this thread the first time around, too.

e-mails to my reps will be going out shortly.

[NineseveN]

Originally Posted by exceltoexcel

Let's not just talk and talk about this....

I've done the leg work for you guys!

Write, my guess is maybe one person if that (other than me) will even bother to contact everyone on this list and their own personal legislators...

Here's where you find your local legislators so you can contact them all and tell them to vote against this....

http://www.legis.state.pa.us/index.cfm


Here are all the pages you have to go to to tell those that introduced the bill that you're not happy with this..


http://www.georgekenney.com/?section...ectiontree=105
http://www.pahouse.com/contact/viaLDPC.asp?district=173
http://www.pahouse.com/contact/viaLDPC.asp?district=173
http://www.pahouse.com/contact/viaLDPC.asp?district=174
http://www.pahouse.com/contact/viaLDPC.asp?district=181
http://www.repross.com/?sectionid=92&sectiontree=92
http://www.pahouse.com/contact/viaLDPC.asp?district=198
http://pageneralassembly.org/?sectionid=26
http://www.reponeill.com/?sectionid=38&sectiontree=38
http://www.carolerubley.com/?section...ectiontree=103
http://www.pahouse.com/contact/viaLDPC.asp?district=133
http://www.pahouse.com/contact/viaLDPC.asp?district=39
http://www.pahouse.com/contact/viaLDPC.asp?district=182
http://www.pahouse.com/contact/viaLDPC.asp?district=186
http://www.pahouse.com/contact/viaLDPC.asp?district=112
http://www.pahouse.com/contact/viaLDPC.asp?district=136

Good work, you beat me to it (posting the contact pages for them).

I sent my letter to my reps and all involved. it doesn't have to be terribly verbose or witty, a simple, 'if you support this, I will not vote for you' or 'this is gun control, it is unacceptable' will work just as good as an elegant essay that they probably won't even read. However, since I'm kinda on the eccentric side (and some of them probably expect that by now), I sent the following...

Re: HOUSE BILL No. 1893 Session of 2007


I am at a loss as to what this legislation hopes to accomplish aside from further burdening gun owners and making someone a pile of money due to the fees that are involved with mandatory training requirements. Many states have no testing or training requirement at all, the streets do not run with blood because of all the untrained people who carry firearms. Pennsylvania issues as many or more licenses to carry firearms than most states; yet we have no problems here from untrained people killing others in the streets with negligent discharges or fits of temper and rage. Can any of the politicians that support this bill produce any evidence that anything like this even occurs in Pennsylvania? Surely we would have heard it on the news by now if the problem of untrained LTCF holders involved in negligent shootings were rampant.

According to data on gun deaths from the CDC, states without training requirements see less gun deaths per 100,000 than those with training requirements. The difference is only 0.18 per 100,000, which is small and largely insignificant. If we go forward and look at unintentional firearms deaths per 100,000, we see a difference of 0.01 deaths per 100,000, which is statistically insignificant. The data shown here leads one to the conclusion that there is very little, if any difference between states with and without training requirements for concealed carry. While this information does not directly relate to CCW/CHL/CCP holders (no source is available such data), I would expect it to follow the same general trends.

Now, since we do not see blood in the streets from LTCF holders and rampant negligent shootings where no training is required (certainly not in this state), there is no problem to solve. Since training is a solution, you need a problem; if you have no problem, you need no solution. There is little to no demonstrable reason to require any form of training and additional fees for those that apply for a license to carry a firearm in this commonwealth, and any vote towards that end is a vote for gun control and I will vote against such supporters at every opportunity.

Furthermore, even if there were a problem, someone who will carry a firearm without taking it upon themselves to get educated beforehand won't not much from mandated training anyway. When you had Biology (or whatever) in high school, you were forced to take it, correct? You probably passed, but can you tell me which fish species can climb trees or what Glucagon is and what it does? Without using Google? My point exactly.

Aside from the practical application of the data above, there's a more important point, the difference between a right and a privilege. There should be absolutely zero requirements or hoops to jump through for a free citizen to own or carry a firearm; that’s how a right translates into a free society. If the true concern here is unintentional firearms deaths, then I would submit that the far and wide majority of those occur due to people who don’t own firearms misusing them (such as children who find a gun), not someone who goes through the checks and process for an LTCF. If you want to try and mitigate the possibility of truly negligent deaths with firearms, reinstate the NRA’s Eddie Eagle program in all schools in this commonwealth, children who don’t know to never touch a gun and immediately tell an adult are far more likely to hurt themselves or someone else than an adult LTCF holder.

However, if you were to support or sponsor legislation that required politicians to actually know something about the U.S. and Pennsylvania Constitutions, statistical analysis and the subjects that they try and pass laws on before they can draft or vote on them, I would wholly support you in that endeavor. Far more damage has been done to this commonwealth by ignorant politicians aiming for the greater good or a certain political agenda regardless of merit than by negligent, untrained LTCF holders.

A vote for this is a vote in ignorance against gun owners and a vote against liberty.


Sincerely,
xxxxxxxxx
A voter in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania

..and the condensed version for the contact pages that restrict messages to 2048 characters only:

Re: HOUSE BILL No. 1893 Session of 2007


I am at a loss as to what this legislation hopes to accomplish aside from further burdening gun owners and making someone a pile of money due to the fees that are involved with mandatory training requirements. Many states have no testing or training requirement at all, the streets do not run with blood because of all the untrained people who carry firearms. Pennsylvania issues as many or more licenses to carry firearms than most states; yet we have no problems here from untrained people killing others in the streets with negligent discharges or fits of temper and rage. Can any of the politicians that support this bill produce any evidence that anything like this even occurs in Pennsylvania? Surely we would have heard it on the news by now if the problem of untrained LTCF holders involved in negligent shootings were rampant.

Now, since we do not see blood in the streets from LTCF holders and rampant negligent shootings where no training is required (certainly not in this state), there is no problem to solve. Since training is a solution, you need a problem; if you have no problem, you need no solution. There is little to no demonstrable reason to require any form of training and additional fees for those that apply for a license to carry a firearm in this commonwealth, and any vote towards that end is a vote for gun control and I will vote against such supporters at every opportunity.

A vote for this is a vote in ignorance against gun owners and a vote against liberty.


Sincerely,
xxxxxxxxx
A voter in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania

P.S. As an aside, TonyF, myself and a few notable others went back and forth on this topic for a bit in an older thread...in case you're interested: http://www.pafoa.org/forum/general-2...re-voting.html

[billamj]

While I understand where everyone is coming from on this one I still don't know how I feel about it. I mean at least they give viable definitions to work from.

"1 within six months prior to the date of application.
2 "Safety training course." A course of instruction in the
3 safe handling and operation of firearms, including:
4 (1) any National Rifle Association basic firearm course;
5 (2) any hunter education course approved by the
6 Executive Director of the Pennsylvania Game Commission; or
7 (3) any other firearm safety course approved by the
8 Attorney General of the Commonwealth.

On the one hand this would probably give us the opportunity to get states like Ohio and SC on the reciprocity list. On the other hand it does add another "means" test, even though virtually everyone on this board has taken one or more of the above.