Open carry training memo for LEO dept's in PA [final draft]

[pmcmanis1]

Folks,

I think this document is great. However, on the street with an officer that may be "upset" that you are carrying openly and perceives you as a threat is not the place to be presenting this document. You're going to be charged with something (unfortunate, but likely). It's when you go to court that this document and it's legal references would be presented or possibly your attorney presents it to the DA prior to the arraignment to show that they do not have sufficient evidence to bring the charges further.

Once that is completed, then it is the time to demand that you be reimbursed for your attorney's fees, etc and that the officer in particular, and maybe the entire department in general, be retrained on the current laws of the Commonwealth. Since these departments are given the authority that thye have, they need to be held to a higher standard with regard to knowing the laws of the Commonwealth.

I was subject to a search about 8 months ago by the Upper Moreland PD. Situation was similar but with one difference to Philly's recent case. In my situation, there was a very recent robbery of the local BK. When I was ordered out of my car, I informed the officer that I was carrying on my hip and that I had a permit. Then he instructed me on what to do at that point (get on my knees, cross my ankles, etc). He told me he was going to remove my firearm. I told him that it was loaded with a round chambered but that the safety was on. Long story short, he took my weapon, I checked out, the other officers ramped their response level down except for him. When it came time to leave, he refused to return my weapon. It was then that I informed him that since I was carrying legally and had not committed any crimes (hence I'm being released from detainment) he was required to return all of my property in the condition that he received it. The other officers agreed with me. I did, however, agree to place the weapon and magazines in different locked containers in the rear of my suv to "ease his concerns". I also told him that I was rearming myself when I was half a mile away from the scene. I also told him that if he pulled me over again, I would comply with his directives to secure my weapon for his "safety" but that at the completion of that stop, I would be contacting my attorney and filing a complaint with his department for his violating my rights and harassing me. I heard a few low snickers but took the weapon and did as I said I would, got in my vehicle and drove away. I didn't yell at him or scream "it's my right" because that would've gotten me a disorderly conduct charge. I didn't even tell he better not stop my again, I just informed him of my actions if he were to stop me again within a reasonable amount of time that night without probable cause.

[gnbrotz]

Originally Posted by pmcmanis1

Folks,

I think this document is great. However, on the street with an officer that may be "upset" that you are carrying openly and perceives you as a threat is not the place to be presenting this document.

I refer you to the OP in this thread:

Originally Posted by Pa. Patriot

... for mailing to your local PD's

Further, I'll note that since this document has been drafted, we've had official training materials drafted and presented to all municipal police departments in the state as a result of steadfast activism by many members here. This activism has also resulted in several court decisions in our favor, that while non-binding on other courts, have generated a HUGE amount of press around the state, country, and even the world.

There is no doubt that open carry is legal in PA, and there should be absolutely NO excuse for any municipal LEO in the state to not be aware of that fact.

[BimmerJon]

Originally Posted by pmcmanis1

Folks,

I think this document is great. However, on the street with an officer that may be "upset" that you are carrying openly and perceives you as a threat is not the place to be presenting this document. You're going to be charged with something (unfortunate, but likely). It's when you go to court that this document and it's legal references would be presented or possibly your attorney presents it to the DA prior to the arraignment to show that they do not have sufficient evidence to bring the charges further.

Once that is completed, then it is the time to demand that you be reimbursed for your attorney's fees, etc and that the officer in particular, and maybe the entire department in general, be retrained on the current laws of the Commonwealth. Since these departments are given the authority that thye have, they need to be held to a higher standard with regard to knowing the laws of the Commonwealth.

I was subject to a search about 8 months ago by the Upper Moreland PD. Situation was similar but with one difference to Philly's recent case. In my situation, there was a very recent robbery of the local BK. When I was ordered out of my car, I informed the officer that I was carrying on my hip and that I had a permit. Then he instructed me on what to do at that point (get on my knees, cross my ankles, etc). He told me he was going to remove my firearm. I told him that it was loaded with a round chambered but that the safety was on. Long story short, he took my weapon, I checked out, the other officers ramped their response level down except for him. When it came time to leave, he refused to return my weapon. It was then that I informed him that since I was carrying legally and had not committed any crimes (hence I'm being released from detainment) he was required to return all of my property in the condition that he received it. The other officers agreed with me. I did, however, agree to place the weapon and magazines in different locked containers in the rear of my suv to "ease his concerns". I also told him that I was rearming myself when I was half a mile away from the scene. I also told him that if he pulled me over again, I would comply with his directives to secure my weapon for his "safety" but that at the completion of that stop, I would be contacting my attorney and filing a complaint with his department for his violating my rights and harassing me. I heard a few low snickers but took the weapon and did as I said I would, got in my vehicle and drove away. I didn't yell at him or scream "it's my right" because that would've gotten me a disorderly conduct charge. I didn't even tell he better not stop my again, I just informed him of my actions if he were to stop me again within a reasonable amount of time that night without probable cause.

Nothing wrong with asserting your rights, you don't have to yell or scream in order to do it.