OC Encounters and Audio Recording (with example)

[emsjeep]

So I figured while I was in Walmart the other day, its about time to get a digital audio recorder to carry around, just in case. I always thought that this was a good idea for both legal reasons, personal reasons and educational reasons. Legal obviously, listening to an encounter can help you learn from your mistakes and make the next one better, and in addition you can help other people to learn and find out what to expect.

Tonight I had my first, and a good, OC encounter at the Ammo counter at Walmart. A little boy pulls his father over to the aisle I'm in saying "Daddy, Daddy, that man is carrying a gun!" The rest you can hear for yourselves, for the good and the bad. I was hoping to have a good conversation with this guy but the Walmart employee I had been waiting for showed up right after he addressed me and I didn't want to keep the poor guy waiting while I layed out my OC spchiel. Turns out the guy was a permit holder but not a carrier. I had to say goodnight and wish him well to attend to my purchase as I had dragged the poor Walmart guy halfway across the store to help me.

For those interested, this is the RCA digital pocket recorder they sell in Walmart for about $40. 256MB capacity will last 18 hours. I carry it in a pocket, this time in an FD workshirt breast pocket and it seems to work very well. I will be carrying it "hot" on all future OC endeavors.

This is snipped down to the actual encounter itself, you cannot hear the man's son in the recording. I promise, I'll try to be more educational next time!

http://acpalasek.com/pafoa/04082009OC.wav

[granuale]

Originally Posted by emsjeep

For those interested, this is the RCA digital pocket recorder they sell in Walmart for about $40. 256MB capacity will last 18 hours.

Model # please.

[emsjeep]

RCA RP5120

[keryst]

Was this in PA? I thought recording audio of people without their consent on private property was against wiretapping laws.

[granuale]

Originally Posted by emsjeep

RCA RP5120

Damn! Amazon says it weighs 2.4 pounds. Is that right? My .38 weighs less than 1/2 that

[emsjeep]

Originally Posted by keryst

Was this in PA? I thought recording audio of people without their consent on private property was against wiretapping laws.

Only one party needs to know.

Originally Posted by granuale

Damn! Amazon says it weighs 2.4 pounds. Is that right? My .38 weighs less than 1/2 that

it takes 2 AAA batteries...it weighs enough that I don't notice it in a breast pocket...

[keryst]

Originally Posted by emsjeep

Only one party needs to know.

Do be careful if you are in PA. The attorney general disagrees with you:
http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/crime.aspx?id=199

Some 41 other states nationwide have their own wiretapping/electronic surveillance statutes. These statutes follow either a "one party consent" or "two/all party consent" rule. The former creates an exception to the foregoing general prohibition if one of the parties to the intercepted communication is aware of, and has consented to the interception. The latter reflects a more restrictive rule -- that being that both, or all parties to the intercepted communication must be aware of and have consented to its interception. Pennsylvania falls into the latter, more restrictive category.

[granuale]

Originally Posted by keryst

Do be careful if you are in PA. The attorney general disagrees with you:
http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/crime.aspx?id=199

You missed this most important section of the article in your quote:

For the purposes of this article, "electronic surveillance" shall include the interception (to include recording) of electronic (digital pagers, computers/e-mail, fax machines), oral (face-to-face conversations where there is an expectation of privacy/non-interruption)

I humbly submit the checkout line at WalMart is not a place where one has an expectation of privacy.

[emsjeep]

Originally Posted by keryst

Do be careful if you are in PA. The attorney general disagrees with you:
http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/crime.aspx?id=199

Its a public conversation with a stranger, in front of other strangers no less, there is no expectation of privacy; see your own source.

[keryst]

Originally Posted by emsjeep

Its a public conversation with a stranger, in front of other strangers no less, there is no expectation of privacy; see your own source.

I'm honestly curious about this. Has there been case law to make these determinations? Looking up 18 Pa.C.S.A. § 5702, rather than talking about expectations of privacy, the definition the statute gives is this:

"Oral communication." Any oral communication uttered by a person possessing an expectation that such communication is not subject to interception under circumstances justifying such expectation. The term does not include any electronic communication.

This seems awfully subjective.

(and fwiw, I dislike this "all-party" consent crap.)