OC'ing, what ID is needed/voice recording

[jcabin]

I know OC'ing is legal in PA without an LTCF. I know the fine line between what is considered CC and OC. Where you can and cannot go while OC'ing with and without an LTCF.

My question is, if stopped by a police officer, and asked for some form of ID, what is needed in PA? Must you produce some form of ID other than LTCF(since its not required for OC) or do you simply have to tell them verbally who you are. Or do you not have to tell them who you are at all?

The next question is the ability to record audio or video of the encounter. What are the laws in regards to this? I remember there is a digital mail box set up here we can dial to record the encounter if we do not have a voice recorder, so if someone could give me the number it would be much appreciated. Also, from what I understand, in order to record an officer in PA you must make them aware that they are being recorded. IE pulling out the recorder and saying "Officer, I'm making you aware that this conversation is being recorded, here is my recorder, do you acknowledge its presence?"

How would that work with the audio mail box from the cell phone, would I have to let them know they are being recorded there as well?

thanks for the input folks. My OC'ing has really been hampered by the cold weather and it's starting to warm up now so I just wanted to be sure of the law and prepared to stand up for my rights.

[imperialism2024]

IANAL but...

As for identification, I believe that all you are required to provide is your name and date of birth. As for recording audio, I believe that we've concluded that since an LEO would be acting in a official capacity, he has no expectation of privacy and thus no notification of the recording is needed.

I could be wrong on both counts, though.

[rwilson452]

I'm not sure about the laws regarding recordings. If I recall there has to be no expectation of privacy and knowledge of the intercept. You really need a lawyer of this one.

I would provide ID and at the same time ask if the officer had received his annual up date yet. ( 180 course?) If he says yes, ask him why the Terry stop. unless the officer can articulate his/her suspicion of a crime if the only answer he/she can give is your open carry, ask for a supervisor and file a 5301 against him/her. get a civil lawyer and file a civil complaint.

[knight0334]

I'm not sure about recording.

As for ID, you're not required to carry your papers....er... ID. How would you be required to provide ID if you aren't required to carry it?

[Pa. Patriot]

http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-ope...police-pa.html (Audio/video taping police in PA)

[JCWohlschlag]

Originally Posted by jcabin

My question is, if stopped by a police officer, and asked for some form of ID, what is needed in PA? Must you produce some form of ID other than LTCF(since its not required for OC) or do you simply have to tell them verbally who you are. Or do you not have to tell them who you are at all?

If you are having a casual conversation with a law enforcement officer, i.e., you are not being detained as per a Terry Stop, you have no obligation to identify yourself at all. You may walk away, stay silent, do cartwheels, etc.

If you are lawfully under detainment as per a Terry Stop, then you are only obligated to identify yourself verbally with your name and, I believe, your address.

You are not required to produce, or even possess, a driver’s license, state identification card, license to carry (while openly carrying), or any other tangible form of identification. Hell, you are not even required to produce a driver’s license at the time an officer pulls you over in a vehicle! (75 Pa.C.S. § 1511 allows you 15 days to bring in a driver’s license that was valid at the time of the stop.)

Originally Posted by jcabin

The next question is the ability to record audio or video of the encounter. What are the laws in regards to this? I remember there is a digital mail box set up here we can dial to record the encounter if we do not have a voice recorder, so if someone could give me the number it would be much appreciated.

I would give it to you if I knew anything about it, unfortunately as it stands, I would like that number as well.

Originally Posted by jcabin

Also, from what I understand, in order to record an officer in PA you must make them aware that they are being recorded. IE pulling out the recorder and saying "Officer, I'm making you aware that this conversation is being recorded, here is my recorder, do you acknowledge its presence?"

This is incorrect. You only need to advise other citizens that you are recording a face-to-face conversation with them. Law enforcement officers, while performing their public duty, are exempt from any reasonable expectation of privacy and any reasonable expectation of non-interception. See this thread (Audio/video taping police in PA) for more reference material on this subject.

Also, be aware that the requirement to advise is different than the requirement to obtain permission (consent). In face-to-face conversations, i.e., “oral communication” as described by statute, you only need to offer advisement (again, to citizens being recorded). Consent is only required when recording a conversation being transmitted over an electronic means, e.g., a telephone conversation.

Originally Posted by jcabin

How would that work with the audio mail box from the cell phone, would I have to let them know they are being recorded there as well?

It would work the same using a phone with the audio mail box as it would if you were using a standalone audio recorder. No notification is necessary if you are only recording yourself and law enforcement officers.

[Darysdad]

[quote=jcabin;596093]I know OC'ing is legal in PA without an LTCF. I know the fine line between what is considered CC and OC. Where you can and cannot go while OC'ing with and without an LTCF.

My question is, if stopped by a police officer, and asked for some form of ID, what is needed in PA? Must you produce some form of ID other than LTCF(since its not required for OC) or do you simply have to tell them verbally who you are. Or do you not have to tell them who you are at all?

QUOTE]


There are 3 levels of detention recognized by PA courts; a mere encounter, a investigatory detention, and custodial detention. A mere encounter must be voluntary and can be terminated at any time by either party. (ex: police officer approaches you and asks if we can speak for a moment.) During the encounter police can ask or request anything including who you are, but you are under no obligation to answer or even stay.

An investigatory detention requires a reasonable suspicsion that the person is invloved in criminal activity. (ex: traffic stops are invesigatory detentions) A citizen is temporarily detained while the incident is investigated. The police can ask identifiying questions. If you provide false identifying information during a detention you can be charged with a crime.

§ 4914. False identification to law enforcement authorities.
(a) Offense defined.—A person commits an offense if he furnishes law enforcement authorities with false information about his identity after being informed by a law enforcement officer who is in uniform or who has identified himself as a law enforcement officer that the person is subject of an official investigation of a violation of law.

The true test between the first two levels is if you are free to terminate the discussion and walk away. I would just ask, am I free to leave?

The emphasis in the current 180 update training is that OC alone is not a reason to detain a citizen. There has been much confusion about this in LEO's for some time.

Please keep in mind you do not know what the officer was told by complainants prior to the encounter. If he was given bad information (you were threatening people in the store) He would have the right to detain and investigate.

Hope this helps a little.

[gnbrotz]

Originally Posted by jcabin

My question is, if stopped by a police officer, and asked for some form of ID, what is needed in PA?

If you are on foot (and outside of Philadelphia), there is no requirement to produce any type of government issued ID, regardless of the "level of detention."