2009 MPOETC Mandatory In-Service Training

[Pont319]

From the MPOETC training booklet, course 09-201, pg. 45 Uniform Firearms Act Update: "Open Carry". Question #1 What is "open carry"? Answer #1 Open carry can be defined as carrying a legal firearm, loaded or unloaded, on your person unconcealed, with or without a valid and lawfully issused license to carry a firearm.

Question #2 Is "Open Carry" legal in Pennsylvania? Answer #2 Yes, but with several exceptions: The Pennsylvania Uniform firearms Act is silent on the specific issuse of open carry. 6106 only prohibits carrying a firearm in a vehicle or concealed on or about one's person, except in the person's place of abode or fixed place of business, without a license and when no exemption applies.

Carrying a firearm unconcealed on one's person does not violate 6106. However, a person who engaging in "open carry" of a firearm violates 6106 when that person enters a vehicle with the gun in his possession and that person does not possess a valid and lawfully issued license to carry a firearm and is not exempt from licensing. Also, a firearm cannot be open carried in an area where firearm possession is generally restricted.

And no, PAFOA is not written into the text.

[lildobe]

Originally Posted by Pont319

From the MPOETC training booklet, course 09-201, pg. 45 Uniform Firearms Act Update

Is this copied verbatim? If so, thank you very much!

[Pont319]

Verbatim, first three paragraphs.

[DaveM55]

We had our updates and the legality of OC was covered.

It was a very positive experience.

[medic550]

I wanted to add some info being a dispatcher. Dispatchers are not trained like police officers nor ever will. Two totally different job functions.

We try to get as much info as possible and send police to check on it. We can not tell from a phone call if they can legally possess a gun.

Now sure they could question what are they doing with the gun. But you have to understand we go by what they tell us. (He waving it around) meanwhile you are OC in the supermarket.

Due to political climate there would be no reprucussions to the person who called it in. They can even remain anonymous, When i put in a call for GUN or WEAPON as it would code. It sends it immediately to a radio dispatcher while im still entering info.

Frank

[The Unknown 1087]

Originally Posted by medic550

I wanted to add some info being a dispatcher.

Due to political climate there would be no reprucussions to the person who called it in. They can even remain anonymous, When i put in a call for GUN or WEAPON as it would code. It sends it immediately to a radio dispatcher while im still entering info.

Frank

They're information still shows up on the screen, atleast around here it does. If the caller says "He is waiving it around" and they find out that the person is shopping or doing other normal things, the caller should be charged for falsifying information or something along the lines...Atleast thats how I feel.

[HiredGoon]

Originally Posted by Pont319

From the MPOETC training booklet, course 09-201, pg. 45 Uniform Firearms Act Update: "Open Carry". Question #1 What is "open carry"? Answer #1 Open carry can be defined as carrying a legal firearm, loaded or unloaded, on your person unconcealed, with or without a valid and lawfully issused license to carry a firearm.

Question #2 Is "Open Carry" legal in Pennsylvania? Answer #2 Yes, but with several exceptions: The Pennsylvania Uniform firearms Act is silent on the specific issuse of open carry. 6106 only prohibits carrying a firearm in a vehicle or concealed on or about one's person, except in the person's place of abode or fixed place of business, without a license and when no exemption applies.

Carrying a firearm unconcealed on one's person does not violate 6106. However, a person who engaging in "open carry" of a firearm violates 6106 when that person enters a vehicle with the gun in his possession and that person does not possess a valid and lawfully issued license to carry a firearm and is not exempt from licensing. Also, a firearm cannot be open carried in an area where firearm possession is generally restricted.

And no, PAFOA is not written into the text.

Strange it doesn't mention that OC is prohibited in cities of 1st class (Philly) unless OCer has a valid LTCF.

Or that OC is prohibited in a declared emergency unless OCer has a valid LTCF.

[LM4300]

Originally Posted by HiredGoon

Strange it doesn't mention that OC is prohibited in cities of 1st class (Philly) unless OCer has a valid LTCF.

Or that OC is prohibited in a declared emergency unless OCer has a valid LTCF.

Just had my MPOETC class today. The OC topic was not dwelled upon any longer than the other law topics. PAFOA and PAOC were not mentioned other than the instructor stating there are "websites out there" where people advocate or talk about OCing. There was no outspoken students either for or against OC, other than a few moans from the back. I highly doubt anyone was in class was an advocate anyway. No one seemed particularly shocked hearing that OC was not illegal.

The instructor did ask if we (as police) can demand a DL or other official ID card when encountering someone on foot OCing. I, of course, answered NO. Some thought you could, but the instructor did say you can only ask for a DL when someone is driving a vehicle. I wish he would have clarified that you can ask someone to ID themselves verbally, but not demand "papers". A basic scenario of responding to a call of a man shopping with an OC gun at WalMart was also posed. The end result was that an person OCing with no other circumstances, was not breaking any laws and should not be arrested simply because they had a gun in plain site on their hip.

What I thought was really lacking is that MPOETC only mentions that OC is not allowed in Phila. It does not clarify that with an LCTF that it can be done legally. Same with declared emergencies. There also was no mention of any of the case law that deals with OC in PA.

There was a news video shown about Ms. Hain and her OC incident and how she got her LCTF back. The video does not mention any websites either. I did mention afterwards there has been other lawsuits as a result of cops unlawfully detaining/arresting people while OC, but he did not seem to be aware of them.

I wish the discussion was a little more in depth, but there was no hew and cry from the cops there. No one voiced wanting to use Disordely Conduct as a catch all, or screwing guns in the ears of an OC citizen. No one had any stories of encountering anyone OCing either.

[renegadephoenix]

i had a discussion with a washington county police officer yesterday at a gunbash. we talked briefly about OCing since i was OCing my Sig. he said that there were taught that OC is Legal but can stop people once they enter a Vehicle under RAS. he said that once a person enters a vehicle they are now CCing and must have a CCW (i know it's a LTCF his words not mine) that gives them a reason to stop you and question you.

[LM4300]

Originally Posted by renegadephoenix

i had a discussion with a washington county police officer yesterday at a gunbash. we talked briefly about OCing since i was OCing my Sig. he said that there were taught that OC is Legal but can stop people once they enter a Vehicle under RAS. he said that once a person enters a vehicle they are now CCing and must have a CCW (i know it's a LTCF his words not mine) that gives them a reason to stop you and question you.

This type scenario was brought up in another recent thread. Others have made the argument that under that rationale, you could stop anyone you saw on foot then attempt to drive a car because you don't know for sure they have a drivers license. That stop would get be unlawful because you don't have enough information to suspect a crime or violation is occurring.

I've made the devils advocate argument that an officer could argue that he had specific (accurate) knowlege about the legalities of OC and how not all those that OC have an LCTF. Also that they could argue that they know there is still much confusion over when and where you can OC (as evident on this forum, since there has been many times when those wanting to be lawful, wrongfully think they can OC then drive and not need and LCTF since they are OCing their gun), then he could stop and investigate. I know most won't like that argument but I'm just throwing it out there.

I think that either scenario would probably be shot down by an examining judge because you don't have enough suspicion to really think a crime has occurred. i.e.

OC with no circumstances = no evidence of crime
Seeing someone on foot then enter a car and drive it away = no evidence of crime
No other circumstances or traffic violation to warrant a stop = No reason to stop that person.

Hope I explained that well enough.