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  #1 (permalink)  
Old November 16th, 2008, 11:49 AM
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Default Minimun age for open carry

My older daughter turned 18 in September of this year. My question is; keeping in mind the legal definition of a firearm is a handgun (sic) with a barrel length of less than 15", would it be legal for my 18 year old daughter to go for a walk in a rural area (or anywhere else for that matter) openly carrying a handgun that's registered in my name, or her moms name. Her mom and I are divorced, I don't reside there. And what EXACTLY is the legal definition of 'open carry'.

As a point of reference, I have relatives in AZ who are LEO who've advised me that a handgun worn in a holster under a coat in AZ is considered not concealed.

Another thing I'm aware of is that something is enforceable ONLY if it's in the crimes code. Meaning if it's not in there, it's NOT enforceable.

Thanks all!
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old November 16th, 2008, 12:03 PM
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Default Re: Minimun age for open carry

Open Carry is anything that's not concealed. The Uniform Firearms Act (UFA) is silent on Open Carry, so you're not going to find a definition of such.

The minimum age for Open Carry is 18. Concealed Carry, which requires a license, is 21.

Although at age 18 your daughter cannot purchase a firearm, you, or your ex-wife, can give her one (i.e., a gift), or she can purchase one from either of you two. As a parent-to-child transfer, no paperwork or Official involvement is required. You mentioned handguns registered in your name or your ex-wife's name. There is no handgun registration in Pennsylvania.

What holds true for Arizona does not hold true for Pennsylvania. Hidden under a coat is Concealed Carry as far as Pennsylvania is concerned, and would require the bearer to possess a License to Carry Firearms. On the outside of the coat, however, would be Open Carry and would require no license.

You're correct concerning the Crimes Code. If something is not listed as a crime, then it's not a crime at all.
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Old November 16th, 2008, 12:04 PM
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Default Re: Minimun age for open carry

First off,Pa. does NOT have a registery. The PSP has a record of sale.

You can gift a firearm to your daughter.

18yrs. is OK to OC, must be 21 to buy a handgun or get a LTCF.


I'm sure one of the more knowledgable ones will speak up soon.
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Old November 16th, 2008, 12:08 PM
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Default Re: Minimun age for open carry

Wasn't it Chief Justice Story that said," Where the law is mute, there is no law."




Quote:
Originally Posted by Statkowski View Post
Open Carry is anything that's not concealed. The Uniform Firearms Act (UFA) is silent on Open Carry, so you're not going to find a definition of such.


You're correct concerning the Crimes Code. If something is not listed as a crime, then it's not a crime at all.
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Old November 16th, 2008, 12:18 PM
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Default Re: Minimun age for open carry

Also bear in mind that without a LTCF she would be in violation of Federal law if she carried the gun within 1000 feet of a school (18 USC 922(q) - The gun Free School Zone Act of 1995).

This is usually a 'pile on' charge and not often enforced in absence of another charge but it is the current law!

Last edited by tl_3237; November 16th, 2008 at 12:22 PM.
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Old November 16th, 2008, 12:20 PM
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Default Re: Minimun age for open carry

Quote:
Originally Posted by Statkowski View Post
The minimum age for Open Carry is 18. Concealed Carry, which requires a license, is 21.
I take exception to this... While it IS true that you need to be 21 to be issued a Pa LTCF, it is NOT true that you must be 21 to Conceal Carry in Pa.

If you are under 21, AND have a Concealed Carry Permit from a Reciprocal State, you CAN Conceal Carry in the Commonwealth of Pa.

There is nothing in the UFA that says you must be 21 to CC. Only that you must be 21 to get a PA LTCF.
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Old November 16th, 2008, 12:23 PM
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Default Re: Minimun age for open carry

Quote:
Originally Posted by lildobe View Post
I take exception to this... While it IS true that you need to be 21 to be issued a Pa LTCF, it is NOT true that you must be 21 to Conceal Carry in Pa.

If you are under 21, AND have a Concealed Carry Permit from a Reciprocal State, you CAN Conceal Carry in the Commonwealth of Pa.

There is nothing in the UFA that says you must be 21 to CC. Only that you must be 21 to get a PA LTCF.
Do you know which states those are, that would be good info. to have posted.

Last edited by fingers80002; November 16th, 2008 at 12:24 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old November 16th, 2008, 12:48 PM
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Default Re: Minimun age for open carry

Thanks all for the quick responses. I'm aware that there's no official gun registration in PA, just that when one purchases a gun the paperwork legally connects the serial number to your name. I'm also aware that what's legal in other states isn't necessarily legal in the Commonwealth. I've asked a couple cops and so far their answer is "Where & why is she carrying the gun in the first place?" Their question doesn't answer my question, and FYI, I already have a written response from my daughters home county D.A. concerning a letter I wrote to his office about carrying in a school on a PA License to Carry. In his response he says it's not legal, but seems to leave open the possibility there'd be no charges filed if I were to respond to a deadly threat situation. Catch 22 of course, how does one use a gun to defend oneself or others if one doesn't have the gun in the first place!?

Also, those of you who responded, are you LEO or other legal professionals?
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Old November 16th, 2008, 01:00 PM
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Default Re: Minimun age for open carry

Let's clarify some of the info posted thus far as there is some inconsistecy and incorrect points.

Age to open carry:
18

She can openly carry anywhere in Pa. other than in vehicles and Philadelphia. For vehicle carry and carry on public streets in phila a LTCF, a liense from any other state or other exception (paragraph (b) of the below law) is required. (ref: 18Pa.C.S.6106 18Pa.C.S.6108)
She also can not carry in places prohibited from carry by law such as court facilities, see this thread:
http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-ope...nsylvania.html (READ FIRST: Where you CAN and CANNOT Carry weapons in the State of Pennsylvania)

Concealed carry:
She can carry concealed in her "abode" or "fixed place of business". She can also carry concealed if she were to aquire a license from a state that is recognized by Pa. (reciprocal) as lildobe mentioned above.
Ref: 18Pa.C.S.6106(b)

Age to purchase a handgun:
18
However, a licensed dealer can not sell to under 21 yr olds due to fed law. So an 18 yr old is limited to gift/purchase from parent/grandparent/spouse. Or have purchase from other private party transferred through sheriff dept.
See this thread for more info:
http://forum.pafoa.org/question-answ...tml#post497933

For a general sumation of the above see this printable flyer:
http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-ope...carry-you.html (Your Pennsylvania Gun Rights ~Handy flyer to carry with you.)
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danbus wrote: ...Like I said before, I open carry because you don't, I fight for all my rights because
you won't, I will not sit with my thumb up my bum and complain, because you will.
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Last edited by Pa. Patriot; November 16th, 2008 at 01:16 PM.
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Old November 16th, 2008, 01:09 PM
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Default Re: Minimun age for open carry

Quote:
Originally Posted by donquixote1955 View Post
Thanks all for the quick responses. I'm aware that there's no official gun registration in PA, just that when one purchases a gun the paperwork legally connects the serial number to your name.
Not correct.

1) Only handgun, SBR and SBS purchases and transfers through an FFL, in which a form SP4-113 is executed have serial number info sent to the PSP to be added to the "database" of some sales. This data base is a database of exactly what I described above. Sales/transfers where a SP4-113 is generated. NO other trasfers or acquisitions are recorded in it.

2) Since the database is incomplete and there are other ways to acquire handguns legally in Pa. without the generation of a form SP4-113, the "database" is 100% worthless as a means to connect a serial number to "your name".
It simpy does not prove ownership.

Quote:
Originally Posted by donquixote1955 View Post
I'm also aware that what's legal in other states isn't necessarily legal in the Commonwealth. I've asked a couple cops and so far their answer is "Where & why is she carrying the gun in the first place?"
Police are the last people you should ask for legal info/advice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by donquixote1955 View Post
...FYI, I already have a written response from my daughters home county D.A. concerning a letter I wrote to his office about carrying in a school on a PA License to Carry. In his response he says it's not legal,
Since she is 18, I assume you are referring to a college when you say school?
If so then the DA is absolutely WRONG. There is NO law prohibiting carry in college institutions in Pa.

Can you share this letter? This needs addressed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by donquixote1955 View Post
Also, those of you who responded, are you LEO or other legal professionals?
I am neither of the above.

The above is not legal "advice", simply the law as I understand it.
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Quote:
danbus wrote: ...Like I said before, I open carry because you don't, I fight for all my rights because
you won't, I will not sit with my thumb up my bum and complain, because you will.
Remember Meleanie
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